Then it is not really that important to him and he ought not threaten consequences over an issue not even important to mention as being important in a negotiation.
Other party can’t guess what is important or not to him if he can’t state it himself.
Not that dating is a contract. Sheesh.
I’m sure he’s written a column more relevant to the discussion, but part of Dan savage’s latest podcast really struck me (it comes up around the 22 minute mark). It’s in regards to a guy who was a 20-something virgin, in part because he’d had surgery on his penis. He was nervous about telling women and that they’d be turned off. This week a woman called in and said that, for her, and people she knew, it was a turn on.
Dan’s response, as best as I can transcribe:
All right, so it’s oversimplifying a little, and being a virgin is hardly the same as being transgendered (or, hey, being a hermaphrodite – do they have an obligation to do more than yell ‘Surprise!’?), less shameful in the eyes of society and not really going to get you beaten or killed (quite the opposite, in some societies, if you’re a woman).
Still, even if he doesn’t bring up ethics, I think he’d recommend being upfront. And really, I’m not sure how much of a problem this is, pre-op transsexuals tricking people into sex. Either they think everyone’s on the same page or… what? They want to risk being on the receiving end of shock and disgust, and possibly violence? They’re hoping lust will take over and their partner will screw 'em before turning the tables? Just keeping the lights off (actually, okay, I believe Brandon Teena did that, though it’s questionable whether his female partners were really in the dark)?
Here’s the thing: although I don’t grok their feeling of gender, I accept and respect transgendered folks’ belief that their gender is a mental, not a physical, thing*.
I would think that transgendered folks above everyone else ought to respect that some people have a mental, rather than physical, concept of their own sexuality.
I will happily call someone by the gender they want to be called by. It’s no skin off my nose.
By the same token, I expect transgendered people to respect my desire to limit myself to sexual partners who were born female. They don’t need to grok that desire any more than I need to grok their belief in their own gender; they just need to respect it.
And I’d wager that my desire to limit myself to sexual partners born with a certain set of naughty bits is the overwhelming majority. Even if it’s just a bare majority–even if it’s a pretty significant minority–transgendered folks owe us the courtesy of revealing before intimacy, just as we owe them the courtesy of respecting their desired** gender.
Daniel
I already damn well told you. I’d run. Take your preconception glasses and read what I actually read.
And redneck? Football team? Me? Extrapolating pretty hard, aren’t you?
Because it wouldn’t occur to me. At all.
And if, for some fleeting moment, it did cross my mind, I would never consider the likelihood of it being the case high enough to merit raising the subject.
Well, I admitted living in Idaho. Your apparent assumption that that makes me a redneck is about as impressive to me as my being a homophobe is impressive to you.
And I’d run.
The presumption, in Idaho, is that every person was born the physical gender they appear to be. That is the default. That is the null hypothesis. That is the assumed state of reality.
I don’t ask people whether they’re disguised aliens from venus doing preliminary investigations for an invasion, either. How negligent of me is that?
Now I’m not following you. Are you implying that you think that if a woman said to me “Oh, you have diabetes? I don’t want anything to do with that. I’m out of here”, that I would fail to handle that rejection?
What do you think I would do? Stalk her? Tie her up and keep her in the basement? Maybe lasso her from atop my hoss and toss her in the back of my beat up pickup with my gunrack and five pet piglets?
You don’t have any idea what homophibia is, do you? It’s like acrophobia, or agorophobia, or triskadecaphobia. It’s an involuntary reaction. Getting rid of it isn’t like getting up and deciding to wear a blue shirt instead of a red one this morning.
Actually it wouldn’t occur to me to ask any of those things.
I might ask whether she was a religious nut, though. Because there’s a respectable level of plausibility that it might be the case.
Well, I don’t presume the other party is retarded. Which I think would apply to any transvestite i met in Idaho to whom it hadn’t occurred that it might be an issue.
Nonsense. I’m sure nobody bothers to check whether their partner’s a wanted serial killer, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not important, just that the answer is extremely unlikely to be “yes”.
Because if they read news that is relevant to their situation, they’d realise that people get upset, even violently so, when they discover that they’ve been deceived in this way?
Fine, you don’t like the contract metaphor? How about “lying by omission”?
When this subject comes up I always think of a good friend of mine in college who was a light-skinned biracial woman. She was a very sexy looking girl and got hit on a LOT by men of all races, but she’d learned the hard way that it was best to be very upfront about being half black. No one ever got all Imitation of Life on her or anything, but she’d briefly dated a guy who broke up with her as soon as he saw a picture of her parents. After that she figured it was better to find some way to work “So, I’m black” into the first conversation with a guy. This information made no difference to a lot of guys, some were probably happy to hear it, but there were also some who would go from trying out their best lines to suddenly finding a reason to be at the other side of the bar.
Now, for her own sake I think this was the smart thing to do. Why should she waste her time with someone who would consider her racial background to be a dealbreaker? But I don’t think she had an ethical duty to reveal her history before having sex.
Except that transgenders are attacked simply for living their lives, or they live in fear of attack.
[quote=“Left_Hand_of_Dorkness, post:63, topic:493638”]
By the same token, I expect transgendered people to respect my desire to limit myself to sexual partners who were born female. They don’t need to grok that desire any more than I need to grok their belief in their own gender; they just need to respect it.
[/grok]
And I am sure tehy will. If you tell them - otherwise you might not grok each other.
Look, where I live is pretty close to the way Idaho is described in this thread: one of the hardline bastions of american conservative bigotry. We voted 83% in my city and close to that in the entire county and all the surrounding counties. Draw your own conclusions.
I have a gay friend.
He assures me he as no more trouble meeting married guys here on craigslist then when he lived in one of our fine urban areas.
So you can’t always tell someone’s preference as to gender if you don’t ask. I don’t know which married guys he is with and I don’t care. But it does affect how sanctimonious I see them as a group when they preach hatred.
Or else what would happen? If you say “I would walk away disappointed”, then fine, but if it goes much further than that, you are not thinking it through.
What would you have them do, tattoo their face so you know at the earliest possible moment? :dubious:
My bad - instead of “redneck”, substitute the words you did use to describe your statemates: “one of the hardline bastions of american conservative bigotry”
OK. I believe you.
OK, about that homophobia then?
Really? Don’t you have a certain recently ex-Senator who has been in the news? Are you really sure about that being so universal?
Not at all, because it doesn’t happen. But if it might tuen you on, maybe you should ask - maybe someone would pick up on the game, and how hot would that be!
I am jsut wondering, because your claimed reaction seems fine, but then it doesn’t seem to align with your rushing to claim that you are a homphobe and that everyone around you is so bigoted too. If it is no big deal, tehn why tell us those things?
Some might find that hot too!
Uh OK. So now you are saying you have been diagnosed with a mental disporder by recognized mental health practitioner?
Are you getting treatment for that?
Wouldn’t it be ethical of you to address this up front with any potential partner?
So you know you have this metal disorder that affects your sexuality and how you interact with the sexuality of others, yet you choose to avoid this issue when a new, unknown potential partner arises, when you are perfectly capable of asking similar questions that are equally fundamental as to negotiating the early steps of a relationship.
Hmmm.
So some stuff you will ask, but other stuff, which by the virtue of your diagnosis you know is important to you, you expect people to intuit your need and blurt it out rather than assume you don’t need to know or it doesn’t mater to you.
Hmmm.
Is that your homophobia talking? You will call her retarded because she couldn’t intuit your needs and mind? Or do you simply think that your statemates, the “one[s] of the hardline bastions of american conservative bigotry”, have run out all the transgenders, and try very hard to not let new ones in and that you, as a diagnosed homophobe, can take advantage of that to your benefit?
I am soooo not getting you.
You haven’t been checking the ads on internet dating services lately, have you? or the requirements for joining soe of them?
Maybe you shouldn’t be so sure.
And if you are one of those, it is OK and not ethically incumbent on you to not beat people up or worse?
:dubious:
Is it even possible to say everything about one’s life in a whole lifetime? Of course you are going to leave stuff out.
If you want to know something particular, simply ask.
[quote=“not_alice, post:68, topic:493638”]
Funny typo there 
Oh, nonsense. The number of post-op transgendered folks who hide their gender while seeking dates is vanishingly small. The number of folks who are seeking dates and who care about the biological gender of potential partners is huge. Both groups are aware of their relative proportions. It’s the job of the former group to lay cards on the table.
That’s a pretty fuckin insulting thing to ask, and I won’t dignify it with an answer. Feel free to get all snippy about it, but it doesn’t deserve the dignity of an answer.
See, this is the heart of the issue.
People’s genitalia comes in a range. Might surprise you but true.
People are not hiding anything, they are being themselves.
If you see someone with a nice set of boobs (which the clothing accentuates) and then later find out there is a dick too (because that part of the clothing left it unclear, just as for 90% of the women waling the street in most outfits), maybe you will be surprised to find out, but no one was hiding anything.
Think about it - except with very tight pants of some sort or something similar, you never really know until you know, you know? Most of us will go a while lifetime with no surprises, but because we assume it doesn’t make the next case a sure thing. It could be anyone, you generally can’t tell if you are “getting fooled” until you get down to brass tacks. Be disappointed if you must, but don’t accuse anyone of hiding anything.
And if they don’t they deserve to be beat up and killed? :dubious:
No, it is the very point of making a claim someone has an ethical responsibility to act. What is the penalty for not acting that way?
Begbert, to his credit, answered the same question.
What would happen if someone didn’t tell you, and you found out when your mind was well set on intimacy (whatever state that means to you, being intentionally vague).
I will answer for me - I would politely end it, same as if I found out at that point we didn’t have sufficient birth control or her private parts were covered with visible herpes outbreaks. Of course I should have asked about all that, but I didn’t, and when I found out, I simply acted and moved along. Disappointe? Sure. In need of a cold shower? Sure. But I am not putting myself in the same camp as those who will kill and contort “ethical responsbilities” to justify it.
I don’t know if you are either, that’s why I asked. It is a fair question.
Yeah, I just read that… crazy sad world we live in… =(
During the trial, prosecutors played recorded jail conversations where Andrade referred to Zapata as “it” and said it wasn’t as if he “killed a straight, law-abiding citizen.”**
“His own statements in the jail call betray the way he values Angie’s life, the way he thought of her as less than, less than us because of who she was,” Chief Deputy District Attorney Robb Miller told jurors.
*
I have a friend who’s got the same problem – only she’s Colombian with curly hair and people get upset when they thought they were dating an African-American girl. Another is petite, dark-haired, almond-eyed and Irish and she’s found it’s best to fit, ‘By the way, I’m not Asian’ into conversations with boys as early on as possible.
Well, now you’re assuming that I’m exactly like my noncomplimentary assessment of my statemates, which is more fair, at least. It’d probably be more fair if you noted that I’ve already desribed by status: a homophobe who would react to such a situation by retreating from it. Not by whacking it with a baseball bat, or whatever you’re imagining I’d do.
I will note that I don’t necessarily speak for my statemates on this issue; I have not sufficient information to make guesses on the average reaction to a late-game discovery of unusual gender history in a sexual or prospective sexual partner. (Assuming the ‘average’ reaction is relevent to any given particular situation anyway.)
What about it?
Well, objectively speaking, nothing is universal. That doesn’t mean that the default assumption doesn’t still apply as a general rule.
But you’re welcome to keep trying to convince me that a significant number of people in Idaho (of all places) are transgendered. What do you think, 30% of the population? 40%? 80%?
Mm-hmm. Are you really not getting the point?
Actually, I don’t mind mentioning that I’m a homophobe because I don’t consider myself a bigoted homophobe. I don’t try to legislate my qualms or anything like that. However I do have qualms, and I thought it relevent to the discussion to state an opinion as a person who has such qualms.
And I mentioned the backwardness of my locale in answer to a direct question about why I don’t proactively interrogate people about their gender history at the first opportunity. A part of that answer is the answer of course being that I estimate that round these here parts, the odds of the situation ever arising to be about zero. As I suspect this would not be the case if I lived in certain areas of california, the locale I’m in and its liberal/conservative climate are directly relevent to that question.
Then those people will just have to find somebody else other than me to do it to them, I’m afraid.
Wow, you really don’t have the slimmest clue what homophobia is, or apparently acrophobia, or agorophobia, or triskadecaphobia either. Because you don’t need a professional to tell you you have a negative reaction or aversion to heights, crowds, or the number 13. Or persons who don’t slot neatly into the ‘usual’ gender/sex categories, for that matter.
I do wonder what sort of ‘treatment’ I’d get for it? The mind boggles.
As for the almost relevant question of whether I should mention that I don’t want to shag a man, even if they’re just one physically…that’s almost relevant. If I thought there was even a hairline probability that I’d meet a person with whom that would cause a problem, I might have to consider that. However, I don’t think there’s much likelihood of that. To the degree it would be stupid for me to ask about it at every turn.
And in the vanishingly unlikely event that I find myself in an extended relationship with a transsexual, they’ll have ample opportunity to discern my reaction to uncommon gender states. After all, I’m not exactly hiding it, am I? I even mentioned it on a message board, freely opening myself to criticism by people with low reading comprehension and/or the desire to misrepresent me. Somebody who I was getting sociable with in person could easily probe me for that information with no trouble or personal risk, and learn that, in case it wasn’t already obvious, they shouldn’t make a little secret of it and blindside me with it in the later stages of the relationship.
I think it would be really cool to have a metal disorder. Don’t you? Assuming you don’t just mean having your silverware stored improperly. 'Cause that’s not that impressive. Though I suppose it could affect your sexuality, depending on just how badly you misplaced your flatware.
And of course, any fool knows that if there are two potential problems, one that is likely to come up, and one that is vanishingly unlikely to come up, you ask about the one that might come up. There’s no point if going around asking people if they’re venusian invaders; that’s dumb.
I would call her retarded if she was completely unaware of everyone in the state’s “needs and mind”. It’s not exactly a secret that some people in this state are homophobic. It’s more like, duh.
Personally I think that transgendered people are pretty frikking rare to start with. Add to that that I do think that there is a certain selection pressure for people to gravitate to more liberal areas, rather than a state that prides itself on being redder than red. But above and beyond all that, I think a transgendered person - or any person for that matter- would have to be either incredibly unaware or incredibly dense not to realize that if there is anyplace where you ought to check in advance for homophobia, it’s places that still have an unusually high concentration of homophobes and bigots.
No, it’s not a fair question, and your persistence in asking it means I have nothing further to say to you outside of the Pit.
I have no experience with online dating services, so you might be right. But the fact that the dating service thinks they need to ask such things does not mean that it would have occurred to the people looking for dates.
I did not say that. You suggested that the transgender person could not recognise that it is important unless the other person asked, and I was giving another method by which they could recognise that some people do consider it a deliberate deception.
There’s a difference between just happening to leave something out and taking deliberate, positive action to hide it and then letting your partner draw the wrong conclusions.
By the way, as the guy who answered the ‘So could you possibly resist your rage-driven urges to beat up or kill people (and by the way, are you still beating your wife)?’ question, I want to second the idea that it’s a ridiculous and stupid question to ask a person who has not already argued at least vaguely in favor of the ‘kill teh faggits’ position.
[quote=“Grumman, post:76, topic:493638”]
I have no experience with online dating services, so you might be right. But the fact that the dating service thinks they need to ask such things does not mean that it would have occurred to the people looking for dates.
Well, not true. some dating services offer this precisely because they see a market in people who want that precise level of safety about the otherwise random people they might meet. if you are not familiar with them or their business models, that is OK. But, yes it does mean precisely what you say it doesn’t/
OK, well it was called (by you, I’m not sure at this point?) “lying by ommission”. so where would you draw the line - what is it ok to leave out, what must be included (and when - at first flirting glance? because people get beat up for that too), and what can be left out without being considered lying by omission?
In your mind, is there any wriggle room that others might legitimately hold differing views on those items, either a little different or a lot different, or anywhere in between, or is it carved in stone for everyone?
Two things:
It is telling that you see “that” question. I don’t. I see two people who intially flirted and moved on, same as any two people might, and then, rather than prior, find out they may not be as compatible as they thought.
It could happen for innocuous reasons or not, this is just one of them. Maybe you find out that due to the circumstances of meeting and flirting you didn’t know she was an amputee and that is a deal breaker. Or maybe while flirting she over drank and passed out and that is a deal breaker. Or maybe she has a birthmark you can’t get past. Or she reminds you of someone you don’t like. who knows? We make these decisions all the time with every potential partner that turns out to not pass the “potential” stage. I just don’t get why this one reason is singled out.
As for your other post, I don’t want to spend all day playing word games with you.
You said you are a homophobe, and you called your statemates bigots.
No one asked you to attach either of those descriptions here, they are both unusual (in the sense of rare) on this board, so maybe it would be better rather than for me and us to assume what you mean, that I ask you to clarify. So here goes…
Is it your position that your statemates’ bigotry does not include homophobia, and also that your homophobia is not bigoted?