But it’s not about gender per say.
It’s more about previous genitalia that the partner may have had.
A male with a penis is no different than a transgender with a penis except one of those is genetically XX.
The idea that a homosexual person would be squicked out by finding out that the guy he just slept with was a woman surprised me slightly, but it makes sense. If it applies one way, why not the other I suppose. But still. I’ll go with my previous assessment. It’d be courteous and NICE to know and almost a certainty in a relationship.
But for one night stands? Where’s the harm in not telling? It’s not like an STD or something like that. Especially after the fact, that could actually cause negative consequences and should really be taken with special considerations. It’s always best to say these sorts of things before the deed. But afterwards? I’d rather just have both parties leave each other without any harm- psychological or physical.
The reason I mention it is that these kinds of terms are sometimes used as a gotcha, or at least as a way of assuming a world view which is kind of hard to follow. I need only mention the infamous phrase “woman sperm” for experienced Dopers to recollect what I mean.
I imagine many transwomen who’ve still got male genitalia assume the guys they have casual sex with know exactly what they’re in for – as far as I know, they hook up almost exclusively with ‘straight’ men, and those who work in the sex industry cater to the same demographic (though there is a subset of gay men who are into transmen – specifically, guys who’ve taken hormones and identify as male but still have vaginas).
I’m certain there are instances where they never get to that special ‘You know I have a penis down there, right?’ moment, mostly because they are under the impression both people at the bar or club or whatever already know the deal. Still, they know they’re still risking a nasty reaction when the clothes come off. As others have said, while there may not be an ethical duty to tally up your genitals before a sexual encounter, it’s probably safer to risk rejection than a hate crime.
Then again, I’d like to see some stats – how many transmen and women are assaulted after starting a sexual encounter and ‘tricking’ someone, rather than simply having their trans status known, or while/after being in a full-fledged relationship.
Well - and the equipment IS different. Its a penis, but it isn’t quite really a penis. Kind of like a woman who has had a mascetomy and reconstruction surgery (or just wears prothestics)…Breasts, but not quite breasts.
MY post last night as I went to bed didn’t make it - I found the infamous “data base error” awaiting me this morning.
I think the question is inside out as far as ethics goes.
If one knows that one is likely to react badly (up to and including murder) should a low frequency event occur, and one is not confident enough to tell when that event might occur, then one is ethically obligated to take steps to avoid it.
Maybe that means asking every potential partner straight up (no pun intended) if she has what one is looking for. That might earn some hard rejections, but it also might lead you to the sorts of sympathetic characters you are looking for.
My gay friends tell me there are no shortage of married men in this god fearing country town to hook up with on craigslist or wherever. I would guess much of the fear comes from fear of exposure counter to social norms and self-presentation as much as anything else. Let’s not assume that “one” didn’t know the truth from the beginning anyway.
This isn’t the greatest example – while a transman (FTM) might undergo a metoidioplastyor phalloplasty, it’s my understanding that neither will result in a penis that looks and functions just like a typical one. He wouldn’t be able to ejaculate, for one thing. The transman may be able to have an erection and enjoy sex, and it wouldn’t necessarily be obvious that he was in fact a transgendered (a post-op intersexed man or an XY/cisgendered man who’d suffered a serious injury to his genitals and had reconstructive surgery might look much the same), but his partner is going to notice that he’s out of the ordinary.
A lot of transmen feel that the results produced by genital reassignment surgery aren’t worth the trouble and expense and choose not to do it, although most do get mastectomies and hysterectomies. Transwomen (MTF) are more likely to get good results from surgery and so are more likely to undergo vaginoplasty.
ETA: As of the time of this posting none of those wiki links contain photos, in case you’re worried about clicking on them at work.
I just want to point out that the term “tranny” is generally considered, by transsexual and transitioning transgenderd folks, to be offensive. It’s along the lines of calling a gay man a faggot - he and his friends may throw it around, but it’s still a slur. “Tranny”, like shemale or “chick with a dick”, is closely tied to drag queens or the porn/sex work scene, and really shouldn’t be used for a trans woman or trans man.
In our present society of course they do, and I suspect this is unlikely to change while humans remain in their present form. Fact is that it could course considerable mental harm to someone to find out that they had slept with a transgender individual; in this sense it is no different from having some kind of STD that acts mentally rather than physically.
If in the future it becomes more normal then no such ethical duty will remain.
Relevant to this issue, Allen Ray Andrade, the man who beat 18-year-old Angie Zapata to death after he found out that she was transgendered (after they fooled around), was just a few moments ago found guilty of first degree murder and a bias-motivated crime. This is the first time that a hate crime law was used in reaction to the murder of a trans person.
Your citation that waking up to find the person next to you is not as sexy as you thought earlier is going to “cause considerable mental harm” is a what again?
Precisely what mental harm, and what degree of “ugly” does one have to be to cause this harm?
Is it a degree of ugly between the two people, or absolute?
:dubious:
I also might ask, how can one know about oneself if one is subject to such horrifying and instant mental illness? I suspect I would not be, but how can I protect myself? Is it up to every potential sex partner to protect my fragile mental health, or mine?
If you on the other hand feel you might be upset rather then harmed, I would say it behooves you, not your partner, to make sure and reassure yourself that you are in your safety zone. How could your partner possibly know what your safety zone?
I think a person should mention being trasnsgendered at the first sign of intimacy - I certainly know that I would want to know - for the frank reason of halting the intimate activity before it got started.
But then, I am a homophobe. Not that I want to bother people in the slightest about things that don’t have to do with me…but the gender status/history of anybody who I’m getting romantic/intimate with does have to do with me.
Mainly because I live in Idaho (one of the hardline bastions of american conservative bigotry) and it’s my opinion based on no hard factual data that the odds of me actually running into a transgendered person are really, really low. Then I guesstimate the odds that the person I ask will be offended by the question, and guestimate the probable negative impacts of that. And then I do a cost-benefit analysis of the merit of, basically, implying to the person that I have some reason to think that they might be of the opposite gender.
Also, it simply wouldn’t occur to me as something to ask.
I do realize that the transgendered person has the same cost-benefit calculation to make, and that it doesn’t look too good for them either…but at least they know that it is an issue that should probably be looked into before the situation gets into irrational-feelings-of-betrayal territory.
You might offend some woman who is willing to bed you until that point, but not after. so your risk is not getting laid.
But if she is a he, her risk in not speaking up is what exactly, given you are an admitted homophobe from one of the hardline bastions of american conservative bigotry?
You think the fine women of the state can walk away from you if you show something they don’t like, but if someone shows you something you don’t like, you can’t do the same and walk away?
I notice you neglect to respond to the fact that it wouldn’t even occur to me that it was an issue that needs to be asked about.
Well, I don’t just go around bedding people. I’m only in it for long-term committed relationships. Which is why I asked for my warning at the start of getting intimate - which to me includes every relationship beyond “moderately casual friend” - including non-physical ones.
I should probably have used a less ambiguous term. If I don’t belong in this discussion because I’m not screwing people before getting to know them, let me know.
So for me it’s not about getting laid, it’s about the serious personal investment that is a relationship. And by that point, the person who’s aware of the issue probably should have mentioned it - or casually probed my opinions on the subject and ducked out or brought a halt to the romantic progression previously.
Her risk from me? Irrational feelings of betrayal, like I said, if she waited past the inception of intimacy. And one of us would be leaving the proximity of the other in the immidate future. Rapidly.
If the ‘reveal’ happened before things got intimate, well, I’d be really squicked out and would view the person differently for a while, and probably act kind of like a paranoid freaked out ass in the meantime. After continued expoure, though, assuming they put up with me for some reason, I’d probably become acclimatized and less of a homophobe, one presumes.
Walk away? I’d run. And my opinion of the transgendered sort would not have improved as a result, if things had gone further than I preffered before the break.
Because there’s an arbitrarily large list of things that are important to him which are unlikely to actually come up? It’s like the implied terms in a contract - if one party has knowledge of something of importance to a contract, it’s dishonest to not mention it just because the other party didn’t realise they needed to ask, especially if the first party has taken deliberate action to hide this fact.
You suggested that you are prepared to puff up your chest and impose your will somehow on this person. I don’t know what that way is. You hinted it might be bad, what with you all being rednecks and you admitting you are a homophobe,
so whether you asked or were told, or found out down the line when your redneck friend says your new girlfriend was on the same football team in high school with you, what exactly is the risk part of the equatin you say she has to evaluate in not telling you? What is her risk exactly?
It seems important to you - so if you don;t feel comfortable enough to tell by yourself, and you say finding out later will be risky for her, of not for both of you, then why not simply ask?
You are fine. Historically people have been in relationships for quite some time before they found out. There was a well known movie 15 years or so again, The Crying Game - fictional, but it depicted just such a situation IIRC.
So, no weasling now that you admitted to being a redneck homophobe.
Represent and share, what is the risky thing that might happen? When it happens is not of so much interest to me, but what would happen sure is
why is it relevant? you both were having a grand old time, and you didn’t say anything either you know…
So you would walk way, just like a woman would if you simply asked? You would not be able to handle that rejection, but you are able to dish it out?
Still not fully following…
So why not simply make that change now, since you realize you could live with it, although maybe you would be disappointed, like any relationship that didn’t work out?
What about your self opinion if you let that happen when you could have simply asked and avoided it? What is so hard about asking if it is important to you? Maybe you would ask someone if her boobs are real or if she is really blue eyed because those physical attributes are important to you but can be faked. What’s the difference besides homophobia?
