Do Trump followers and Republicans think the country would survive his reelection?

Politics & Elections
121

I touched on immigration in another response (see above) so let’s tackle affirmative action. First, allow me to approach it the same way I did immigration.

The 30,000 feet view is this: Republicans believe in meritocracy, where those who work the hardest and do the best should be rewarded for their efforts; that all people should be treated equally. An intelligent, reasonable person can agree with this. Democrats believe certain populations have been mistreated in the past and to compensate, accommodations or a helping hand should be provided in order to level the playing field. An intelligent, reasonable person can agree with this as well. Thus, an example where perfectly rational intelligent people can have differing viewpoints.

A specific example of Democrats in action:

While seeking the Democratic nomination in 2020, Joe Biden vowed to pick a woman as Vice President and to appoint a Black woman to the Supreme Court. Republicans I know despised the idea that in choosing the person one breath away from the Presidency, Biden would start by eliminating half (or in the case of the Supreme Court, over 90%) of the talent pool before starting his search, and that his first criteria would be gender or race.

122

A general response to Culling_The_Herd:

Based on his behavior after the 2020 election, Trump is beyond the pale. You can’t defend him, you can’t normalize him, and you can’t vote for him. Full stop.

Those who argue this simple point are either stupid (e.g., they don’t see that the election wasn’t stolen and that 1/6 was actually bad, or they believe some idiotic conspiracies about these things) or they actually want the bad things that Trump is promising.

I suppose there is a third type that I can’t get behind either: people who are so willfully ignorant of politics that they have actively avoided addressing Trump’s terrible behavior. I knew a couple in a city where I was working who were your typical R voters, and they guy said, “All I know is that when Trump was in office my portfolio was doing better,” etc. etc. I liked the guy! We really got along. But in this particular domain, he was choosing to be an idiot. A “dumb motherfucker” if you will.

Among the millions who intend to vote for Trump, there is a significant percentage that are squinting their eyes, trying not to see something or trying to see something in a different way. “Hrmm, maybe 1/6 wasn’t that bad, and it’s always the lesser of two evils anyway, and hrmm…”

So it always is. I was much less political in the 1990s and enthusiastically voted straight R in the 1994 election. I hated Bill Clinton with a passion–and rightfully so. He was and is a smug sexual predator. He should have resigned before getting impeached, and he should have been impeached (which he was) and removed (which he wasn’t). And “our side” (which wasn’t my side at the time) baselessly defended Clinton instead of doing what they should have done, which was nudge the guy toward the exit (which the Republicans actually did with Nixon in 1974).

But… if you squinted your eyes with Clinton in the 1990s, you didn’t end up keeping someone as dangerous as Trump in the White House. Just an okay (not great) president.

(What really ended up making me political was that I hated, hated Dubya from the start and really started looking at things. I also became older and somwhat wiser. And yeah, I think if Democrats had nutted up and ditched Clinton in the 1990s, we would be in a significantly better position now in trying to get eye-squinters to see who Trump actually is and get rid of him…)

123

Where in this thread did anyone characterize every single one of the Republicans party in that manner? Nowhere that I saw.

Ah, both-sideism - in actual fact one side is much, much more prone to demonizing the other. And it’s the Trumpists.

I assure you that I regard all of those listed as human beings with the same rights as I have and I do not wish harm on any of them. The problem is that several of those categories DO very much wish to harm ME. Indeed, some of them are calling for my death.

You again have fallen prey to the “both sides” fallacy.

Making parallels to the Nazis is not at all the same as becoming a Nazi, which is what you are implying.

Most of my father’s side of the family were butchered in WWII because the Nazis didn’t think them worthy of life so I tend to take them seriously as a threat.

See, you seem to think that if I call someone a bigot or a fascist or a Nazi I want them dead. No, I don’t - that’s the other side. I want to live in a country where I don’t have to worry about that sort of person harming me.

Make no mistake, the MAGA-Trumpists don’t think the lives of other people matter as much as theirs do. It’s already the case that places like Ohio or Texas put the life of a dying or dead fetus above the life of an adult women. Trump has stated what he intends for his second term: retribution, not running the country.

The fears of what might happen if Trump gets elected again are not baseless. Stop trying to gaslight people into believing there are no threats.

124

Incorrect.

They do not believe people should be treated equally - they believe those on top should be privileged under the notion that those who do best are those who worked the hardest and are the most deserving. No matter how much money they inherited as a head start.

And yet… the Republicans were OK with Reagan doing exactly that when he put Sandra Day O’Connor on the court, except that in those times doing that eliminate 99.9% of the talent pool.

The problem with those sorts of agreements - and they’re not limited to the US, Europe is having the same problems with the same sort of agreements - is that when you get mass migrations it unfaily burdens the nations next door to the problem, destabilizing them and making it more likely for them to experience extremism or even collapse/fail themselves.

The Trumpists - hell, a lot of other people both Republican and Democrat - act as if this problem is unique to the US. It’s not. It’s happening in Europe. Australia is having immigration problems. No one is walking from Venezuela to Texas on a lark, and anyone that determined is not going to be stymied by a wall (they’ve heard of ladders in South America). We’re seeing mass migrations of people in many parts of the world, in greater numbers than any time since WWII and yet there isn’t a global war going on. Circumstances have changed, what worked in the past (sort of) isn’t going to work going forward and yet no one seems to want to address the causes of these mass movement rather than treating the symptoms.

Nor are the Republicans - and in this case I mean Republicans in general - are interested in funding, say, sufficient judges to deal with the backlog of asylum cases, or otherwise funding anything that would make any system actually work.

I’ll also point out that Trump entirely banned immigration of people from several countries based solely on their religion which, to my mind, labels him a bigot and is reprehensible. Not to mention his calling other countries “shitholes”, and opining why more Swedish people don’t immigrate to the US. All of which leads me to conclude - based on Trump’s actual words and actions - that Trump only wants people who look like him and his family to come here, that is White Christians or White Jews. That’s racist.

125

“I don’t think people (not saying you) understand the “suddenly” part of “gradually then suddenly” going bankrupt–in this case, politically bankrupt. We are very close to the “suddenly” phase, and people are not aware.”

Reading this gave me chills.

I tried to properly quote your post but failed miserably. My apologies.

126

The point I was making (and have been making) is there are 74 million people who voted to re-elect Trump and even more who call themselves Republicans; to dismiss that many as idiots, fascists, neo-Nazis, etc. is nonsensical, and therefore it behooves those who oppose him to try to better understand what their motivation was/is. It’s the height of hubris to assume (as is done frequently here) you all know what’s in their hearts or heads just because SOME of them are bad actors.

If you can’t even conceive of voting for Trump, how can you say you understand why others do? Especially 74 million of them. **

**
Not if you’re standing in the middle like me. Or reading this thread….

What makes you think we don’t understand “some group” or “some party”?
There really are idiots, fascists, neo-Nazis, dupes, religious fundamentalist who want to be the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, racists, bigots, and all manner of intolerant people out there. It’s not a matter of a lack of understanding - I understand quite well. 
The Republican party is irrecoverable. It can’t be saved.  
It’s become like any form of cancer: if chemotherapy doesn’t work, the next option is surgery. 
You CANNOT compromise with pure evil. 
I think there are a bunch of different Trump supporter types. They range from dumb-dumbs who think they’re supporting a normal Republican candidate to self-acknowledged neonazis who want the killin’ to start soon. And there are a bunch in between who are lying to themselves about their own beliefs and motivations."
Yes, they’re fucking nazis.

Just as an exercise, can you list the demonizing names the right call those on the left? Because honestly, I hear far more name-calling directed the other way.

127

Is this your defense of such a practice? That others did it too? And to my knowledge, Reagan didn’t start by saying he was going to choose a woman; he chose one. That doesn’t mean he narrowed the field at all.

A perfectly reasonable argument…but go back to why I posted this. I was challenged to point out policies that Democrats have enacted that perfectly reasonable people might disagree with. Immigration, like most serious issues, is complex, and that means reasonable smart people can disagree without resorting to name-calling or demonizing.

128

You tell us. I don’t get it. He’s a traitor, a cheat and a liar (that’s the short list). He cares nothing for anyone but himself.

What he has shown his supporters is that he will give the rich tax cuts. He defiles women. He’s also a racist and a bigot.

And he gets away with it (so far).

I think people that vote for him want to be just like him. They admire him for getting away with all the shit they would like to be able to do.

129

I never said that EVERYONE who voted for Trump was an idiot, fascist, or Neo-Nazi. I do believe that the fascists and Neo-Nazis in the US voted for Trump and not Biden by a very wide margin. Plenty of other people voted for him because he was the Republican nominee, or because they thought Biden too old (not that Trump is much younger) or because the prefer a “businessman” to a “career politician” or because they did well economically under Trump.

Hey, not my problem the company you keep, but here goes:

socialist, communist, traitor, liberal, and then we get into racial/ethnic slurs and profanity. Including n-word-lover. Among others.

Your knowledge is flawed. “Appoint a woman to the supreme court” was one of Reagan’s campaign promises in 1980. Don’t believe me?

Cite
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Cite - from the horse’s mouth

I think you get the idea. If it’s OK for Saint Reagan then it’s OK for Biden. Anything else is rank hypocrisy.

Then why can’t the Republicans discuss border issues without frankly lying and saying we have “open borders” when we do not?

130

I think this sums up a lot here.

So much of the “We hate Biden” and “We hate the Democrats” rhetoric is based on flawed knowledge. Actually, that’s polite. It’s based on uncritically accepting the unadulterated propaganda and bullshit that is being fed to them.

Yo R voters:. They are lying to you. Your “knowledge” is based on lie after lie after lie. You are a sucker. You’re being played.

131

Why? What’s so magical about that number of people that means they can’t all be some combination of idiots, facscists, Neonazis, bigots, racists, Christian Taliban, homophobes, misogynists and the generally intolerant. That’s less than a quarter of Americans - I find it more nonsensical to think that
only a quarter of Americans hold some combination of those beliefs, actually.

Hell, I’d happily believe a quarter of Americans are merely idiots, never mind the other stuff. But they’ve provided plenty of evidence that they’re all the other stuff, too.

132

And don’t forget, you know, demon.

133

Maybe this is what many Republicans believe, but it’s not what Republicans in power do. What they do is complain and whine about walls and stuff like that, and con vulnerable migrants into getting on buses to who-knows-where, but they don’t actually try to pass bills for actual border security. The Democrats in power have offered, many times, to actually negotiate on border security, increase patrols, increase funding, etc., and the Republicans reject these offers again and again. Because the last thing Republicans in power want is to take away the chaos of the border as a political issue. They don’t want to solve the issue – at least based on the actions of Republicans in political office.

134

Maybe what some Republicans believe, but not what Republicans in office do. What they do, again and again, is vote for tax changes to benefit the wealthy over working and struggling people. This has been the single biggest continuing thread of Republican policy – and the one thing that nearly always actually gets done (unlike any real action on the border, for example) when Republicans have political power.

We don’t know that Biden eliminated anyone. He might have already conducted his search and survey and determined that the most qualified were women. This shouldn’t be particularly shocking – women are more often passed over for high positions despite high achievement, so there are plenty of overqualified women (and black people, for that matter, among many other categories) who are passed over and remain as overqualified, under-challenged, and only need a leader with some willingness to buck the typical trends and biases of society to choose them for the position they’re quite clearly ready for.

135

@Culling_The_Herd, maybe this will help: I’m a former Republican. I’m almost 63 years old, and prior to 2016 I had never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. The era of Trump led to a lot of soul searching, and my buddy busts my you-know-whats that I’ve become something of a bleeding heart liberal.

But my point is that I’m not someone who gets the vapors over any idea right of center. I was a reliable Republican vote for most of my adult life, and I understand a good bit about traditional Republican sensibilities. But that’s not what Trump advances. Now, nothing could make me vote for any Republican, not for any office.

And that’s because of their cowardly embrace of Trump, an objectively incompetent, hateful, racist, misogynistic wannabe dictator, who has committed insurrection and debased our democratic institutions. I understand that you, and others, may disagree with this characterization. And I don’t care. According to my value system, it is undeniable, and certain moral principles are not open to debate.

Combine that with the MAGA crowd’s refusal to acknowledge facts, things that occurred right before our eyes, and I see it as a fool’s errand to try to understand or persuade anyone supportive of such a depraved, deplorable, hateful man. To the extent I have tried, I have failed utterly.

I’ll repeat. We don’t need to understand. We just need to outnumber and outlast them. I honestly think that’s the only solution, if it’s even enough.

136

Grin. I can’t, entirely. It’s a shame more research hasn’t been done to understand the motivations of the 74 million, vs. dismissing them in some fashion. As I said earlier, many who voted Republican aren’t big fans of Trump but are against the vision the Democrats espouse. Others are forced in the binary system we have to choose the lesser of two evils, and they deem the Republicans to be that. Others ARE big fans of his, for what he’s done or said, or for speaking up on behalf of a segment of America the media and elites ignore and/or despise (I wouldn’t ever say Trump actually relates to or empathizes with them, but that’s beside the point: he’s speaking to them and their concerns).

I think this latter group is much larger than people think, and shouldn’t be overlooked and/or looked down upon as is so often done. The elites (of both parties) largely ignore the very real effects globalism and capitalism has had on communities, with job loss, opioid use, suicides (the real handgun death problem), the dissolution of the family structure and so on. It’s an entire chapter worth of material.

IMHO, the right vs. left is a canard; the real problem boils down to wealth inequality and the loss of social trust, something both parties can and should be about…but again, this is the meat of an entirely separate thread.

137

You consider the word ‘liberal’ demonizing?

Could be. I’m working off this: How Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed to the Supreme Court | Miller Center

But my point remains the same: if your best defense is “they did it too”, well, aren’t you the one to toss the “both-sideism” claim at me?

138

Grin away. If you can’t offer an alternative explanation, then we are left with hypothesis #1

139

I agree with you.

It’s the best argument, but he didn’t say he would choose said gendered person because he had in mind a candidate that was the best candidate.

"“I commit that if I’m elected President and I have an opportunity to appoint someone to the courts, I’ll appoint the first black woman to the Court,” said Vice President Biden, meaning the Supreme Court. "I will appoint the first black woman to the Courts; it’s required that they have representation now. It’s long overdue. If I’m elected President, my cabinet and my administration will look like the country, and I commit that I will in fact pick a woman to be Vice President. There are a number of women who are qualified to be president tomorrow. I would pick a woman to be my vice president.”

I’m not saying the best candidate wasn’t in the end a woman or a black woman; but his comments don’t imply that that’s why they were chosen.

140

I can’t conceive of personally voting for Trump because I’m not a racist, a sexist, or a fascist. If I were any of those things, I can very easily see Trump appealing to me.

Cuck. Libtard. Fag. Pedo. Tranny. N*gger.

This is not a hard game you’ve set up here.