Do we have a positive duty to assist the world's poor?

You completely missed the point of my last post. What I said was that, if you want to personalize it, if I have the means of survival (ie money) then I survive. That includes doctor’s visits and such. If I don’t have the means of survival then I don’t survive. That is natural selection inside of a social contract.

My personal view is that individual responsiblity should come before group responsibility, which is why I don’t believe in a moral imperative to donate to the poor. Do I donate? Sure I do. My reasons are moral just the same as the rest of you, but I don’t agree with the statement that either the individual or the government “owes” it to the poor to redistribute wealth based on some absurd notion of “duty”. If you’ve read my prior posts you can see why I don’t agree with a public imperative.

Fair enough, Marc. I was not out to flame you (as I gather you understood) but merely to ascertain whether you saw their claims and our duties as complementary (as it appears you do) or were simply misunderstanding the OP – since your answer dealt exclusively with what they had any right to, and not, as suggested in the OP, what our ethical duties towards them might be. It was not clear to me whether you saw it as an “X implies Y, so no Y implies no X” situation or not. Thanks for clarifying.

With regard to your short-term/long-term dichotomy, I cannot fault your perception that “truly effective charity” is providing adequate bootstraps to raise them up out of poverty into a productive and self-respecting role in the world economy. However, I’d merely point out what Harry Hopkins said back in 1933 to the guy who suggested this with regard to poor Americans badly hit by the depression: “That’s all well and good, Senator, but in the short run, people are starving.” You cannot teach a dead person how to be a productive member of society.

I must say, perhaps unsurprisingly, an emphatic “No.” The word “duty” belongs nowhere in my vocabulary except in matters of explicit contract (even informal contracts like, “Sure, I’ll pick up those forms for you on my way home”). To me, then, deontological systems fo morality completely fail to grasp the nuances of coexistence, flat-out, and I say without reservation that such systems which immediately compell someone to do something with no justification other than a call to duty are short-sighted and highly suspect.

However, that is not to say, in fact, that we shouldn’t help them; rather it is merely my long-winded method of picking a nit. There are several compelling reasons to assist other peoples and nations in their time of need, not all of which need to be motivated in selfishness.

In cases where people are starving, however, there are several things to question. One, to me, is whether aiding these peoples has a side-effect of aiding the regime which enabled this starvation in the first place. If this hypothetical government didn’t help its own people, and we do, that is one less thing for it to worry about, more or less. So of course flat-out aid isn’t asctuaqlly helping these people do anything other than live in a dusty prison without bars. IMO, not exactly a compelling human interest case. Other questions might be of the “fisherman” sort; do they simply not have the wherewithal to produce their own food/factories/schools/etc? Is it their social organization (ie- government/economy)?

Because I recognize no duty, these questions become increasingly important as they seek to resolve the ultimate question, “I don’t want people to suffer; given that, what would I be willing to do about it?” And, of course, “What can I do about it?”

As a nation founded on principles of inherent rights, and a government founded not only to protect those rights but to actively promote growth and security of its citizens, we must ask ourselves each time e deny someone else those rights why we do such a thing. Because they live 100 miles away? 250 miles away? Because they don’t have a piece of paper? Because they don’t have oil? As an individual there are many “rights” I completely fail to recognize, but as a citizen of a nation which does, in fact, recognize such rights, I must ask myself why we wouldn’t attempt to what we think is right everywhere.

Even Rand must admit, without democracy and capitalism nothing can fix itself, so why we would simply let people waste away because we have no duty… well, hell, like I said, we don’t have a duty to do anything. The question is not, then, “Why should we?” but rather, “Why shouldn’t we?” If we would help any class of people which live like them inside our own borders, what is so special about these borders? Etc, etc [insert astute dialogue between two persons much more educated than I trading wit and insight].

No, we don’t have to help them. I still think there are good reasons to help them. We should help them. This is the hidden cost of being a powerful, large nation whose economy spreads into seamy cracks everywhere.

We in the 1st world can help the poor of the world-by opening our markets to them. No amount of foreign aid has ever made a 3rd-world country into a 1st world country. The main problem: mismanagement and corrupt governments. Take INDIA: it is a potentially rich country-it has huge resources,fertile soils, and an industrious population. The main reason it is poor-the Congress party has had a death grip on the country for 55 years. This has bred massive corruption-to the point that outside investment in India is nearly zero. Entrepreneurs are discouraged by the Indian govt’s suffocating bureaucracy-it sometimes takes YEARS to secure the necessary permits for a new factory! Thus, Indian will remain poor, until this corrupt government is removed.

Absolutely! That is precisely why the “moral imperative” to help the poor bugs the hell out of me. Teach a man to fish instead of giving him something to eat.

But Liquid, it isn’t always so cut and dry like that. Sure, I agree (and said so in my post) that we must take things like organization into account, but nevertheless if we intend to “teach the men to fish” then it certainly doesn’t do us (or them!) any good to let them starve until they learn. It could very well be, of course, that their inability to effectively resist their oppression, or growth, is the simple matter of starving in the first place.

Consider a situation not entirely uncommon in America: where a person could afford a house’s mortgage payment (since he pays that much in rent each month) but doesn’t have an income that banks consider high enough to warrant a 30-year mortgage. Now, obviously, if he doesn’t purchase a home for 30 years he will have to rent something for thirty years. Something simple like a modest down payment would be enough to get this man going. Hell, he already “knows how to fish,” so to speak.

Living at the very bottom makes it almost impossible to do anything but stay where you are. Seeking bare sustinence occupies 100% of the day. What time to they have for anything else? And if they do have the time, what other resources are available?

On a personal note, and somewhat tangential to the issue at hand, I think poverty is a direct cause of crime: people who are willing to expend effort in an attempt to achieve their desires yet have no valid means of doing so (coupled with some loose morals, but there you have it). Just MHO. These people know how to acquire goods, yet have no means of exercizing that knowledge.

You’re right, it isn’t so clear cut. That’s why I’m a proponent of giving to charities which share your individual values and morals. I never said not to give to the poor, I may have implied it with my “natural selection” posts, but in those posts I am attempting to show another rational viewpoint. One that I do not object to. Am I morally opposed to giving? No, I in fact support charity donations and work. Do I condemn those who do not give? Hell no. I understand their motivations which may not have anything to do with selfishness.

But I am against a government sponsored program of aid. I’m against debt relief as well. If the government pisses away our support why should we the tax payer pay for it?

The main crux of my argument is that individuals should be free to make up their own mind. If they want to give they should be able to. If they don’t they shouldn’t be persecuted or be made to feel guilty. There is no universal morality that stretches across mankind because you know what? Everyone’s view is different. If I say I don’t want to make a food donation to starving Ethopians does that make me a bad or immoral person? My answer is no. Why? Because I COULD view the situation as such: The starving Ethopians in the commercials live in an area that is being strangled (resource wise) by a hostile government. I may support a program which relocates these people, but if I make a donation that I feel encourages future generations to stay in the same land (or under the same government) all I’m doing is prolonging the agony of starvation. Is that immoral?

Oh, and I think you’re also right when you said that poverty is directly related (or a cause) to crime.

I think you’re making a false dichotomy here. The OP asked “Do we have a positive duty to assist the world’s poor?” Teaching them how to fish is a form of assistance.

Now, perhaps you’re referring to financial donations. Well, guess what? Not all financial contributions are mere dole-outs. In fact, there are many, many organizations which use charitable donations to promote education and provide better means of livelihood.

This is by no means obscure information. In fact, it’s fairly common knowledge.

Unfortunately, many people (and I’m not saying you’re necessarily one of them) proclaim “Mere handouts won’t accomplish anything significant!” and then use this to justify the claim that “We have no moral imperative to assist the world’s poor!” As I said, it’s a false dichotomy, and reflects a lack of research.

Well, we should be more or less free to donate to causes, sure, and the government really isn’t doing anything (AFAIK) to stop you from it. But when we reach a scale the size of entire countries instead of sporadic causes here and there (within or without borders) the sort of agency required to get the ball rolling can only be something like a huge corporation or a government, and Eris knows a corporation isn’t going to do it, so what are we left with?

But, at that, I think the government is the “natural” agency to perform such an action, anyway, since it is the one who is setting the ethical boundries that compel it to act in such a manner in the first place.

In other words, prosperity is the default human condition, and people will be prosperous unless something interferes?

I don’t think this is the case at all. Our earliest ancestors had nothing, and everything we as a species have is due to their (and their descendant’s) work. A baby comes into this world bereft of all possessions.

So enrichment is created by people, and acquired by work or by gift (in the case of a baby and its parents). It’s not true that as a human you have some birthright to a certain level of comfort.

Yes, Moebius, groups of humans built on others’ fortunes. Precisely like third world countries could benefit from us, only on a much shorter time scale.

erislover, I didn’t claim that they couldn’t benefit from us. I claimed that people aren’t automatically born into prosperity unless an external agent interferes (as a prior post seemed to say). I think you completely overlooked the point of my post, without adding anything concrete to the overall discussion.

Uh, ok. I never said that prosperity was the default human condition. I think you read a bit too much into my quote there. I’m referring to the poverty created by poorly run governments where officials are either incompetent or greedy. Look at Cuba as an example. Unless you are part of the party and favored by Castro, you’re screwed.

Yes, Moebius, groups of humans built on others’ fortunes. Precisely like third world countries could benefit from us, only on a much shorter time scale.

Well, that was a hell of a late double-post… someone even got a reply in! :stuck_out_tongue: Moebius, I guess what I am trying to say is that the method with which one has acquired a state of prosperity is more or less irrelevent to helping someone else achieve their prosperity.

Apart from that, I was more or less agreeing with you anyway, so I don’t see a need to get snippy about it :wink: