Do we really owe the Indians anything?

[Sterra]

hmm when my teacher did something on prejudice

one kid complained on prejudice based on experience:)

You wanna know what i like most about the racist people who say minorities should get more benefits? They use things like stastics to prove their points but wouldent actually just give money to poverty stricken people. Noooo you have to do it by race.

Besides when did education really matter? There hasent been a single class that ive taken in about 4 years that i will ever use. (although i am going to try to get a computer tech class so i can sharpen my quake 3 skills)

and theres of course that enviromental science class that is making me good at chess and goldeneye

[sailor]

that’s my point. you are allowed to use statistics only if they support your position.

Statistics show race X commits more crimes but police cannot use that information in trying to solve crimes.

Statistics show race X has less money so we should pass laws giving them more money.

The point is not which one is right, the point is both positions are incompatible with each other. But liberals only accept the part they like and call the other half racist. If you are consistent it should be all or none.

I remember a man on Oprah giving women advice on their safety and saying things like “NEVER get in an elevator alone with a man you do not know” and things like that. That is OK but try saying something like that about women and see if you survive.

This reminds me something I saw about using statistics but i’ll start a new thread about that…

[2sense]

You are correct. My moral judgements on this matter are just that, My Judgements. You should feel free, of course, to keep your wallet in your pocket.

I would be happier to see people open their hearts and minds to non-european Americans. A basic understanding of the contributions to our society of these people and an agreement that they ARE Americans would be more valuable than any check.

OTOH- If the playing field were level, some of these people might compete for the money in your wallet. I would guess, however, that this would be a challenge that you might enjoy.

[Gadarene]

I’m not gonna address your other points yet–partially because I’ve already done so, and I don’t like repeating myself, but mostly because I’m hungry and I’m going to go have lunch. But as for this:

>> what about slaves and women?

huh? what about them? I believe there have been no slaves in the US for quite a while now. And women? what about them? Am I allowed to make sweeping statements based solely on their gender? OK then, here I go… as a class of people they are … no, you really do not want to hear this. I better quit now.

Sailor. I’m gonna warn you once not to take what I say so grievously out of context. Let’s go to tape, shall we?

You said

The whole thing of the American revolution was: we don’t care who your parents were, everybody has same opportunity, same rights, same obligations.

Note that you were talking about the past, when Americans did own slaves and women hardly had the opportunities or rights of men. So I pointed out the flaw in your assertion:

First of all, tell that to the slaves back then. Or the women.

Then, you ignored my rebuttal and made the same damn point again, so I responded:

if the “foundation of the good old US of A” was “a society without classes where each individual is judged individually on his merits,” then what about slaves and women? Hmmm? Can it be that this country didn’t have quite the egalitarian beginning you describe?

Not only have you never answered those questions, but now you’re taking phrases out of context and affecting a puzzled bafflement. Brilliant.

Finally, let me ask one more question that you keep ducking: Is there an ethnically-tied inequity in this country? That is, are quality of life indicators such as level of education, income, infant mortality, literacy, life expectancy, level of incarceration, incidence of drug use substantially different for African-Americans than for whites? And if such an inequity does exist (and I’ve got the statistics which suggest that it does), then what can explain it? I’ve argued–a couple of times now–that there are three possibilities: one ethnicity’s superiority, complete coincidence, or enduring structural conditions. To which, if any, of these do you attribute the statistical disparities?

Also, I’d suggest that you read my posts once more–carefully–and I think you’ll find that I’ve already addressed most of your points. If you’re dissatisfied, feel free to ask again for clarification–but know that I’m not gonna respond to your questions until you’ve responded to mine above.

Second thought, everyone I’m arguing with should answer the question about statistical disparities.

(Jeez, maybe I’d be better off in MPSIMS–do you have to repeat yourself ad infinitum there, too?)

[kdorian]

**
First of all, you are making the assumption that there is indeed such a caste system. But that aside, tell me of one single university that bans NA’s. Tell me of one single company that will not hire an NA.

You can’t because none exist. Opportunity is not equal. If I am stupid, I do not have the same opportunity as a smart person. If I choose to live on a mountain in Alaska, I can’t be a famous chef. If I am 4’8" I can’t be a pro basketball player or a supermodel.

How would you propose that we make things fari for the Native American’s?
**

You may wish to reference cases such as the discrimination suits filed against Texaco, among many others. The fact that a company hires people from different races does not mean they don’t discriminate against people from those groups.

I recently received a handout from the YWCA with some interesting statements, a small smattering of which I include for consideration of others, as I thought they brought up some interesting points.

Effects of White Priviledge:
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured I will not be followed or harrassed while browsing.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existance of their race.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

Daily Effects of Male Priviledge:
I can often take a walk without having to worry about being followed, hassled or assaulted.
I can often speak without interuption and with the assumption that I will be taken seriously.
I can usually assume that my gender will not stand in the way of getting a job that I want.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

2sense: I have already opened my heart, AND wallet to many Americans, with reference to their NEED, not their RACE. The first is charity, the second is racism.

kdorian: have you read a textbook lately? MLK is covered more than any President. They try so hard to be “PC”, they forget the much more major contributions from those who have the misfortune to be white Males.

As for White males walking without being hassled: I’ve walked in some pretty bad areas, where being a White (but kinda brownish…:D) Male, well dressed, makes you a TARGET.

I’ve lost several promotions because of “affirmitative action”, so my sex & race was used AGAIST me.

So, there is still problems with discrimitaion in this country, but now everyone is disciminated against. Great. I guess that’s equal, but let’s just try to all get along, and forget race.

[gEEk]

I’ll agree that Amerinds, as a class, have a higher poverty rate than Americans as a whole. I’ll also agree that Amerinds, as a class, have a much higher rate of unemployment, alcholism and suicide than Americans as a whole.

Why? One word, reservations. Reservations are the main reason Amerinds find themselves disadvantaged. They are, almost without exception, located on the most god forsaken pieces of land you could find. So why would anyone want to live there? I mean, given a choice between a nice, modest apartment in a thriving town somewhere or a tin roof shack in the middle of the desert, which would you choose?

Why do so many Amerinds continue to live on reservations when there are so many opportunities elsewhere?

I disagree with the assertion that, somehow, we as Americans continue to hold the Amerinds down. As has been pointed out there are innumerable set-asides, special programs, scholarships and grants for people of Amerind descent.

Why don’t they take advantage of these opportunities in order to better themselves and their families?

Why don’t they, for example, follow the example of Asian Americans? The average Asian American family comes to America with nothing. They can’t speak English, have very modest skills and very little money. What happens? Do they sink into poverty and disappear? Nope. Mom and Dad get jobs working in some minimum wage industry. They send their kids to school, making damn sure they learn English and do their homework. They save all their money to send the kids to college so that they can get better jobs. As a result, the family prospers. In fact, this works so well that, Asian Americans now face a backlash because they are so successful!

Sound familar? It’s called “The American Dream”. Come here, work hard, save your money, and your kids will have it better than you did.

The sad thing is that Amerinds, in the name of preserving their cultural identity, have decided, as a class, that success is not worth the price.

Unfortunately, they are living a lie, their culture is already dead, killed by the passage of time. No culture lasts forever, ask the Greeks. In order to survive, people must adapt to the new conditionts. Refusal to do so, for even the noblest of reasons, is a death sentence.

Fair enough, that’s their decision. Don’t expect me to pay for the consequences of that choice though.

gEEk

[Mr.Zambezi]

Effects of White Priviledge:
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured I will not be followed or harrassed while browsing.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existance of their race.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

Effects of bipedal privilege:

Can walk around
can run
can flee danger

We ar all unequal in some way. What is your point. Would you make us all perfectly equal? how?

[Mr.Zambezi]

I’m not railing against inequity but inequity which has been historically institutionalized–that is, it’s built into our society, and can be divided along lines of ethnicity.

all of existence is imbued with inequity. Planets, humans, voles…all are unequal. Bring your complaints to God.

There’s no need for radical and continued redistributive policies, as you seem to suggest–just improve the schools for everyone, improve the infrastructure for everyone, improve the prospects of everyone.

Amen, I concur on the schools. But everything else is indeed equal. I put an add in the paper for two employees. I got 0, zip, no, none, bupkis minorities applying. Should I go out and drag them in forcibly? The opportunity is there, but the minorities are not showingup. That is their fault, not mine.

But recognize that the urban black community (I’m talking about them again) are at present worse off than most others, and will continue to be until specific remedies are found.

please put this on another thread.

[quote]
sigh A direct question: Why do you think a greater proportion of black people commit crimes as compared to whites? What’s your explanation?

[quote]

they have a different culture. Why, I don’t know. Why are so many black fathers absent? Answer that and you solve many of our problems.

Easier than who? I’d argue that any upper middle class kid, regardless of ethnicity, will have an easier time getting into and affording college than most Native Americans.

AS a middle class kid who sat on the entrance board for a good school, who is paying off massive loans, I will say that you are wrong. NA’s have lower standards and pay the same loans that I pay plus have huge scholarship funds. A white guy with a 3.0 has a harder time getting into school than an NA with a 2.8. Period.

Out of curiosity, why do you say that? At the risk of a complete non sequitur, look at Las Vegas. I’m not saying it could still (or should still) be done, but…

Because I just got back from that reservation and saw what it was like.

Ah, progress… Reminds me of that Firesign Theatre sketch, “Temporarily Humboldt County.” Anyway.

[Oh, you’re no fun, you fell right over…onto the bus of bozos] Most of us who live in cities now had some agrarian ancestors. Big fat hairy deal. I would rather work in an office than rise at 4 am to milk the cows. Most of us would, which is why we live in cities. Choice, the pinnacle of America. NA’s have the same choice; they just choose differently.

[offline: Gad, are you David B? ]

[pldennison]

quote:

I’m not railing against inequity but inequity which has been historically institutionalized–that is, it’s built into our society, and can be divided along lines of ethnicity.

---

all of existence is imbued with inequity. Planets, humans, voles…all are unequal. Bring your complaints to God.

Holy shit–Mr. Z., please tell me that nasty things people do to one another on purpose on the basis of skin color are God’s fault? The natural order of things?

[2sense]

**
Why don’t they, for example, follow the example of Asian Americans? **

Asian cultures are different than Native cultures.

**
The sad thing is that Amerinds, in the name of preserving their cultural identity, have decided, as a class, that success is not worth the price.**

When did this happen?

**
Unfortunately, they are living a lie, their culture is already dead, killed by the passage of time.
**

Please refer to my post of 05-12-2000 06:58 PM. I think that the 2nd paragraph may apply to you.
Emulating a traditional way of life is not the only way to “act Indian”.

I will refrain from pointing out exactly whom might make a better suspect for your “killer” than Father Time.

Peace

[gEEk]

2sense said:

**
Asian cultures are different than Native cultures.
**

This is totally irrelevant. What cultural difference prevents Amerinds from assimilating into American society in the same manner as Asian Americans? Asian cultures are different from American cultures too, but Asians come here in droves, choosing to assimilate in order to have a better life.

**

**

The sad thing is that Amerinds, in the name of preserving their cultural identity, have decided, as a class, that success is not worth the price.
**

When did this happen?

**

When they decided to continue living on the reservations.

**

Please refer to my post of 05-12-2000 06:58 PM. I think that the 2nd paragraph may apply to you.
Emulating a traditional way of life is not the only way to “act Indian”.
**

Ok. Here it is:

**

Some of the posters here seem to be assuming that Native culture is static. This is untrue. When cultures meet, the exchange can spark new ideas, different ways of looking at things and doing things. In Sociology this is called Cultural Efflorescence. This is 1 of the assumptions underlying Cultural Diversity.
**

I never said Native culture was static. I said it had failed to adapt itself to the realities of life in modern American society.

What do you mean by “Emulating a traditional way of life is not the only way to ‘act Indian’.”? I fail to see how “acting Indian” as you put it, would prevent an individual from succeeding in America.

**

I will refrain from pointing out exactly whom might make a better suspect for your “killer” than Father Time.
**

Actually I’d love to know exactly whom you think might make a better suspect. Who is holding the Native Americans down today? What nefarious agents conspire to force them to live in squalor on useless pieces of land?

The fact is, there are opportunities for Native Americans who choose to leave the reservation and join mainstream American society. Leaving the reservation does not mean abandoning your traditional beliefs, it means you realize that there are many more opportunites to be had outside. As I said before, there are scholarships, grants, and many other programs designed specifically to help Native Americans. If they choose not to take advantage of them, then what else can we do?

gEEk

[InkBlot]

Well, we’re already into two pages and discussions are getting pretty in depth. While this may not follow the current thread, it is a response to the entire topic in general, and the OP.

People keep asking what, if anything, do we owe the Indians? I would suggest, the one thing which is irreplaceable: Self-Respect.

We can’t give it to them, they can’t take it from us, but it has to be built on both sides. Many comparisons have been made to Blacks and their struggles. Despite the cultural rifts and soft-core racisim which still exists today, can anyone deny that great progress has been made?

Education plays a key role in this. To use another example I’ve seen in this thread, direct correlations between poverty and crime have been made with levels of education. Blacks have been fighting for education, among other civil rights, and now that they’re gradually begining to receive it, real change is begining to happen.

So much of this and other conversations I see on this topic seem to revolve around some sort of simple fix. People figure there is something we can give them to fix things. Maybe it’s money, or jobs, or education, or better land, more rights…and on, and on. We have to be willing to work with together to acheive progress, and we have to be in agreement in what progress is.

---

This has been long, and it has been rambling, and it may or may not make much sense. If I may hijack my own post for a moment, I’d also like to include this link: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/1521/carlin_pclanguage3.html It’s an excerpt from George Carlin’s book, Brain Droppings, that addresses the question of what to call Indians in the first place. I’ve seen many terms floating about from Indian, to Amerind, to Native American.
I think it’s just another example of how the Politically Correct mentality is blinding us to things that really matter.

inkblot

[Needs2know]

This is my first viewing of this topic…I was avoiding. I really have nothing to say on the subject except that it tells me an awful lot about the character of some of our posters.

Needs2know…Ditto Gaudarene…I’m not quite so educated or eloquent.

[2sense]

Hello gEEk,

1st off, let me congratulate you on your screen name. The 2 capital "E"s make the name look soooo… geeky.

My statement was not irrelevant. I was simply pointing out that the differencee was cultural.
(You did ask.)
(( BTW-American societies are Native societies))

I was asking you about the timing of the “decision that success is not worth the price”, to grasp your ideas on how modern Native cultures were formed.
(Since you use the word cultural in your answer here, I gotta doubt your irrelevant comment again.)

I am saying that the problem is more complex than your posts make it seem. For Natives, Red cultures ARE the realities of life in modern American society. Just as “Working hard, saveing your money, and bettering your kids”, are part of the realities of life in White culture.

If there were 1 man that I could put on trial for the abomination of genocide perpetrated on the inhabitants of what is now the USA, I would choose Jacksa Chula Harjo, also known as President Andrew Jackson.
(Thanks for asking.)

What else can we do?

Some people think that the solution is multiculturalism.
I haven’t come up with a better answer.

Peace and long life, gEEk.

[pepperlandgirl]

[sarcasm]Wow, I’m so happy that I’m a white female. You know why? According to some posters, my culture is the BEST! Yes Sir! Why, if you doubt it, just look at those ignorant lazy beasts that INSIST on staying on the reservations.

The sad thing is that Amerinds, in the name of preserving their cultural identity, have decided, as a
class, that success is not worth the price.

                 Unfortunately, they are living a lie, their culture is already dead, killed by the passage of time. No
                 culture lasts forever, ask the Greeks.

Thank you for clearing up for me how much better my ‘culture’ is then the American Indians. Many posters are of the mind set *"Get off the reservations, live like the white man! Look, what a great society we are! Why, our women were treated like slaves, along with the slaves we owned for hundreds of years. Don’t you want a heritage like that? And look, how we polluted the air, the water. Look at the lack of trees! ISn’t our new world prettier then yours? Please, follow our example of success! American Indians, as a whole, you are very unsuccessful people based on our white standards. You should really change, be more like us! Obviously because we are your superior, always have been, and we are in the majority, we are right! * [/sarcasm]
Has any of you actually lived on an Indian Reservation? Are any of you American Indians?
Until some of you actually experience it, please, don’t act like you know what’s best. And if some of you HAVE experienced it, then please tell us so, so we know where you are coming from.
I’m not American Indian, however, someone very close to me is, and has family on the reservations some of you look at with such contempt.
I think most of you have offered very intelligent arguements about this issue, but some posters are just ignorant.

[sailor]

I think you are missing the point. "best"is a relative term and you may prefer what I do not like. But that is not the point. The point is that you have to be consistent. If you accept living in the reservation, off the land, etc, then fine. But to want to live like that and have the ammenities of the guys who have adapted to modern life is not consistent. Those guys (white, asian, black or whatever) chose what they found more productive so they could afford those ammenities. If you do not want to adapt to that kind of life, that is fine, but if you want to have a lifestyle that is not productive, then you cannot demand the product of a more productive lifestyle.

it is not a question of "white"vs anything. White people also had lower productivity is the past. Some people give up their traditional lifestyle to adapt to a more modern life which is more productive.

Personally I would love to sail large sail ships like used to be done 100 years ago. Unfortunately that is no longer productive or profitable and society tells me I can pay for it myself if I want to do it but they will not support me.

If you want to live in the country hunting buffalo, writing peotry or whatever, that is your right but you should not expect other people to support you with their labor when you want the ammenities they have.

The life of progress is open to all regardless of race or culture and so is the “traditional” life. But you have to accept the consequences of your choices.

[Spoke]

If there were 1 man that I could put on trial for the abomination of genocide perpetrated on the inhabitants of what is now the USA, I would choose Jacksa Chula Harjo, also known as President Andrew Jackson.

I think my choice would be William Tecumseh Sherman. But then again, I have another bone to pick with that guy…

[gEEk]

2sense

I had a nice long reply all written up, but in the end I decided to chuck it.

Obviously, you have far more direct knowledge of the history of the Native peoples in this country and their culture than I do. I bow to your expertise.

In my opinion, we owe the native peoples of this land the same thing we owe all Americans, no more, no less. We owe them respect for their beliefs and the opportunity to live as they see fit.

However, I reject the notion that we owe them compensation for the suffering of their ancestors. Just as the sins of the father do not reflect on his children I believe that the suffering of one generation does not entitle the next to special treatment. We all have ancestors who suffered great wrongs at the hands of others.
gEEk

[Gadarene]

However, I reject the notion that we owe them compensation for the suffering of their ancestors. Just as the sins of the father do not reflect on his children I believe that the suffering of one generation does not entitle the next to special treatment. We all have ancestors who suffered great wrongs at the hands of others.

I swear to God, it’s like I’m talking to a wall. Will people please stop making points that I’ve already rebutted? Or at least address the substance of the rebuttal, rather than just parroting the same shtick? Someone else (I think Daniel) used this exact argument waaaay back on the first page–it’s fallacious, and I said so. And I suppose I’ll say it again. There are lasting effects of past discrimination evident in our society, in statistical disparities which cleave along ethnic lines. Unless we address those effects, we’re perpetuating the disparities. Which causes this generation to suffer for policies of the past. Reversing structural inequity requires active, not passive, effort. We can’t just wave a magic wand and say, “Okay, everyone’s on equal footing here” and have it be true.

And since no one bothered to answer my earlier question–I liked your evasion, Zambezi, when you told me that if I wanted to talk about blacks I should start a different thread–I’ll rephrase it to be more on-topic. Native Americans in this country–particularly those on reservations–have much higher rates of alcoholism, suicide, and illiteracy than do Caucasians. In general, health and quality of life indicators (life expectancy, infant mortality, level of education) are also much lower. Is it your contention, sailor (and gEEk, and Zambezi, and Daniel, and the rest of you), that this is because those Indians refuse to adapt their culture to conform with the rest of society? That they refuse to let go of the past? That if they all went out and got jobs, everything would be okay? That what went on a hundred years ago has nothing to do with Native American conditions today? That, in short, it’s wholly a matter of personal responsibility?