Do we really owe the Indians anything?

Other notable effects of priviledge:

Effects of White Priviledge

  1. Routinely blamed for the ills of society

  2. Denied access to funding opportunities/jobs due to “fair hiring practices” (aka quotas)

  3. Inability to taken at face value in any conversation where anyone is off a different race/color/ethnic background/etc.
    Effects of Male Priviledge:

  4. I cannot make eye contact with children, let alone talk to/help children in public without the fear of being accused of being all sorts of nasty things (with no potential recourse). You learn to just keep your eyes pointing straight forward and keep walking.

  5. I am unable to effectively pursue custody of my children should my wife leave me. The courts assume I am up to no good.

  6. In cases of sexual harrassment, I am assumed guilty until proven otherwise (and even then, it must just have been because the judge was a man or that I am white or …)

**Gadarene said

I would say that Native Americans living on reservations have higher rates of alcoholism, suicide and illiteracy because the reservations tend to be economically depressed. There are few jobs and consequently very high poverty rates. Higher rates of poverty are associated with higher rates of alcoholism, suicide and illiteracy. Native Americans are not alone in this regard. Check out the rates of substance abuse and other social maladies among poor inner city residents, or poor rural people. IMHO the problems of alcoholism, suicide and illiteracy among Native Americans living on reservations can be largely attributed to poverty.

Is poverty on the reservations the fault of the US government? You could just as easily ask if poverty in the inner cities is the fault of the government. If there are no jobs in an area what can government do to help? Should we just send all the Native Americans big checks so that they can live comfortably? If businesses don’t want to locate there should we force them? Should we require that WalMart open a store near each reservation and hire a certain percentage of Native Americans? Will the government guarantee WalMart’s profits? What happens if the store fails? Is that the government’s fault?

Of course the current conditions on the reservations are the result of the events of the past hundred years or so. That the US government forcibly rounded up thousands of people and forced them to relocate against their will is unconscionable. The state of the reservations today is directly attributable to the actions of the past. The fact that those conditions are not the fault of the Native Americans living there does not mean that they are my fault.

I think that it is very possible for Indians to maintain their culture and succeed. I fail to see how getting an education and finding gainful employment is antithetical to the Indian way of life. A number of people have implied that something in Native American culture prevents then from assimilating into American society without losing their heritage or identity. I remain confused as to what that might be.

Poverty sucks, no matter what the color of your skin. I think we should try to help all poor people equally. I am in favor of job training and substance abuse programs for people who need them. I think that some form of welfare is necessary to assist those who for whatever reason cannot provide for themselves. I believe that scholarships, grants and low cost loans for needy students are a fabulous idea. I just think that these things should be available to all, regardless of what happened to their ancestors.

gEEk

gEEk-

Thanks for the reply. You and I agree more than it might appear. If you read my posts throughout this thread–and I suggest that you do, since I don’t think you have–you’ll see how many times I call for raising the level of education, health, and prosperity of all Americans, not merely those with a different skin color than my own. However, one needs to realize–and it seems like you do–that conditions of poverty, illiteracy, etcetera are found disproportionately in certain ethnic populations. One also needs to realize–and it seems like you do–that this disparity is not due to the inferiority of those ethnicities, but rather the perpetuation of historical conditions. All I’m saying is, let’s face up to that and understand that the playing field isn’t level yet.

Oh, and by the way, you’re not allowed to use the urban black population as a reference point on this thread. Mr. Zambezi said so.

There’s the rub. It’s all well and good to decry the social condition of Native Americans, Gadarene, but what specific solutions do you propose? (And please try to be more specific than “invest in education.”)

Do you propose new secondary schools? Those are already provided. Scholarships? I believe there is a lot of scholarship money out there for Native Americans already. I would not oppose federal funding of such scholarships, or at least low-interest loans, but do you really think that would solve the problems you describe?

Business opportunities? What, specifically? Indians get to operate casinos, which seem to be pretty good income-generators. I don’t have that option. What else do you propose, specifically? What, specifically, should the government do?

Should all land be returned to the Indians? Which ones? For example, should my land in northwest Georgia be returned to the Cherokee nation? Or to the Creeks, from whom the Cherokee took it?

Am I responsible, financially, for the sins of my great-grandfather?

You know, long before I was born, my grandfather was ripped off in some business dealings. Does this mean I should be able to sue the grandson of the man who ripped him off? After all, I am still feeling the financial effects of the rip-off. My inheritance was less than it should have been, and the grandson of the other guy may have inherited more than he should have otherwise received. At what point would you cut off any right of recovery?

I agree wholeheartedly.

Now, what do you believe is owed all Americans? Huh?.

:: Reaching for stack of arcane reference materials ::
:wink:

Keeping our word might be a nice place to start. The United States has a “treaty” with its citizens known as the Constitution. We, as citizens, expect that document to be honored and have the right to seek redress when we feel it has been violated. The United States has many treaties with foreign powers. Those powers expect the terms of those treaties to be honored and they have means to seek redress should those treaties be violated. Since we value our sovreignity, we have not invested international courrts with the same powers to regulate the conduct of our government that we have given to our Federal courts. Therefore, we cannot generally be forced to hold up our end of treaties with foreign nations except through force of arms. At the moment, there is no nation on earth which can reasonably expect to dictate the United States’ conduct through force of arms. This does not absolve us of the moral responsibility to keep our word. It simply means that we have the power to break it without suffering immediate catastrophic consequences.

What we “owe” to Natice Americans is the enforcement of any treaties still legally in effect or, should that prove practically impossible, the good-faith negotiation of a new treaty which will provide alternative compensation agreeeable to both sides.

Spiritus Mundi

That is not nearly as straightforward a proposition as it sounds. I’m not sure that the U.S. is presently in violation of any treaty still in force. The historic problem was that the U.S. would enter into one treaty with a particular tribe, then would become unhappy with the deal and would pressure the tribe to renegotiate a new treaty.

Which treaty do you enforce? The more recent treaty? I doubt that the U.S. is in breach of those treaties. Do you enforce the earlier treaties, using the argument that the tribes entered into the later treaties only under duress? How do you prove that, a century or more later?

What happens to the folks who have been living on land obtained under the later treaties? Say you’re a second-generation American, whose family wasn’t even here when the treaties were written. You have paid a tidy sum for your property. Perhaps you have built a house there. Now, a Native American tribe claims that property as its own. What happens to you?

There are some very thorny legal issues at play when you decide you want to go back and enforce a treaty which has, at least ostensibly, been superceded by a later treaty.

Gadarene
Having read your posts, (really, I mean it :slight_smile: ) I realize that you and I agree on a great many things, but there is still one very important point on which I think we disagree.

I believe that rights and obligations pertain only to individuals, not groups. I do not think that any consideration should be given to a person’s ethnic background when it comes to things like welfare, job training or any other source of assistance or support.

You seem to be saying that we should give poor Native Americans something (which we will leave unspecified for now if you like) because the United States government mistreated their ancestors. I would say that we should give poor Native Americans the same thing we give ALL poor Americans simply because they are poor.

What matters is not what Andrew Jackson and the US government did to the Native Americans over one hundred and sixty years ago. What matters is what we do for them and all poor people in this country today.

2sense

**

Ok, I’ll bite. I would say that all Americans are guaranteed one thing:

Equal protection under the law: By this I mean that no notice should be taken of a persons ethnic background with respect to their interactions with government. No benefit or hindrance should be given to a person because of his or her race, religion, or ethnicity.

This one is pretty all encompassing, because, obviously, government interacts with people mainly through legislation. Things like welfare, Medicare, tax credits and other government programs may in fact benefit one ethnic group disproportionately, but this should not be a deciding factor in whether an individual receives assistance.

Obviously every American is guaranteed the rights enumerated in the Constitution, but this is not really what we’re talking about.

gEEk

Very well said gEEk

Yes.

The constitution guarantees individual rights. If an indian decides to drink all day, that is his decision. If helives in an area with no jobs, it is his decision to stay there. His right to make such decisions is no different than that of a poor rural white. And he suffers the same consequences.

How exactly would you eliminate theh problems that you mention?

I happen to have one solution for reservations: use sovereignty to create tax free enterprise. Specifically, THey could create insurance captives.

But this requires drive and initiative. Two things that the government simply can’t impart to any person.

The other option is to live the life of the pre-white times. Catch fish, hunt, live in a hut.

Spoke:
I never said it would be easy. If you are corrdct, though, that the US in not presently in violation of any treaties which have not been superceded, then it is easy. What we “owe” is simply to continue to live up to the responsibilites we are already shouldering. If not, then we must move into compliance. As I said, if literal compliance is not possible then we must negotiate in good faith to find an acceptable alternative.

As to what the US owes to each of its citizens, I think we all can agree on several points:

  1. All people should receive the same opportunities to find success and seek happiness.
  2. The government should protect the rights of its individual citizens.
  3. Many people are actively descriminated against due to their perceived membership in one or another minority groups.

The question lies in how we deal with point 3. We can either:
a) Say, we know but we cannot do anything to help you against entrenched prejudicial attitudes except provide a counter example.
b) Say, we know ad while we are unable to change entrenched prejudicial attitudes by legislative fiat we can attempt to balance the scales in areas where the government directly touches the economy.

Neither of those positions, of course, addresses Native Americans in particular. It should probably be spun into another thread.

Hijack - Iroquois to ask for Syracuse, NY.

As reported in yesterday’s N.Y. Times, the Onondaga nation of the Iroquois Confederacy is expected to sue in Federal court for the return of its original reservation along the shores of Lake Onondaga. That territory consists of the current city of Syracuse and most of its eastern and southern suburbs.

The Onondaga had long complained that their current small reservation was a result of a series of dishonest land deals engineered by New York Governor George Clinton and his land “agents”, Simeon DeWitt and John Cantine.

Some Background:

The Iroquois Confederacy (or the People of the Long Houses) supported Great Britain in the Revolutionary War. They were upset about continuing European encroachment on their territory along the Mohawk river west from Albany. Of course not every Iroquois backed England and clan/individual loyalty to each of the 6 constituent nations of the Iroquois was not always fast. Some individuals/clans were loyal to the American revolutionaries.

The war on the frontier was often nasty, with civilian casualties, atrocities, and long memories. Nonetheless, President Washington decided that the best way to maintain peace on the frontier was to negotiate and keep treaties.

The Washington Administration passed the Trade & Intercourse Act of 1790, which among other things, required Federal approval of all land sales with Indian nations. The subsequent Treaty of Canandaigua in 1794 pledged that the U.S. government would respect the Iroquois land and that if they chose to sell, the Iroquois would sell only to the U.S. government.

But Governor Clinton had no intention of following the law. He had already signed a separate peace treaty in 1788 that dramatically reduced Iroquois land holdings. His intention was to eliminate any concept of Iroquois independence (or any future Iroquois alliance with British Canada.)

The treaty left the Onondaga nation with 100 square miles around the Salt Lake (now called Lake Onondaga).

So by 1795, his “agents” had acquired the salt mining rights (and 1 mile territory inland) along Salt Lake for $10. Working piece by piece, by 1822, New York state land agents had reduced the Onondaga reservation to 7,300 acres.

With salt being a somewhat scarce commodity and a needed preservative, the area around Salt Lake quickly developed into a town and then the city of Syracuse. It became a minor industrial center with heavy industry dumping huge amounts of toxins and heavy metals into Lake Onondaga. The same forces that made the lake saline in the first place concentrated the pollution and even after pollution controls were implemented, the lake is considered one of (if not the) most polluted in the U.S.

The Onondaga continued to protest the land “acquisitions” throughout the 19th & 20th century only to be blocked by the refusal of New York State courts to hear their case. They (and the other nations) argued that the state had set up phony chiefs who signed away the land without the people’s consent.

When the Supreme Court ruled in 1974 that New York had illegally negotiated treaties and land sales without the consent of the Federal government (which might well haved agreed to the sales), the Iroqouis got their chance. Hundreds of thousands of acres are under dispute, mostly in rural areas, but Syracuse (granted, a depressed, dingy, rust-belt backwash along a polluted lake) would easily be the largest jurisdiction under native control.

Will it happen? The courts would prefer the Iroqouis and New York to work it out. New York still practices its old pattern of recognizing “chiefs” who lean their way. Current landowners are lobbying the U.S. Congress to intervene.

And Hillary and Rudy? They probably know that Syracuse has an o.k. college basketball team.

Nixon…While this story is very interesting and certainly demonstrates the deceitful and unethical treatment of the American Indian by our Federal Government, I’m afraid that to a number of the posters here it won’t mean a thing. In case you hadn’t noticed they are of the mind that our government does not need to make any kind of restitution for it’s past treatment. And indeed there may not be any way really to make up for past ills in the manner in which this particular suit has been filed. But these folks also seem to resent any form of help that is given to Native Americans and other minorities, period. Their contention is that they didn’t perpetrate these inequities and therefore do not feel that they should have to compensate for them. You are singing to a deaf audience my friend.

I’m wondering what the attitudes of these same people would be if they had been not quite so lucky as to be born with a red, brown, black, or yellow face, instead of a white one.

Needs2know

I would have a scholarship to my college and my employer wouldn’t be able to hire me.

Also, I could tout personal responsibility without leftist yahoos insisting that I killed the red man and am somehow keeping him down by working and raising a family.

Oh, and If I failed at anything, I could blame whitey.

As it happens, I’m a card carrying minority. I have, in my wallet, a card proclaiming me 5/512 Choctaw/Cherokee, directly from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, U.S. Govt. This means I’m an official Indian, and could legaly claim scholarships, etc., based on that. Geez, that’s what, 5/1024ths either tribe?

So tell me, what’s more hypocritical? That I have this card, and some 2nd or 3rd generation Indians do not simply because they’re not officially registered with the BIA? Or that I have never used this care, or stated on any scholarship, loan or employment application that I am anything other then Caucasian, all because I don’t feel I deserve the special treatment?
inkblot, who can’t even tan well.

InkBlot raises an important point. If you decide to “compensate” Indians, who gets compensated? Everyone with some Native American blood? I wouldn’t be surprised if 50% of the population could claim a Native American somewhere in the family tree. (I know I can.)

Is there a cutoff? 1/4th Native American? 1/64th? 1/256th?

Do you only compensate those Indians who are still living on the reservation? Only those who are “officially” enrolled?

Since I am part Caucasian and part Cherokee, should I take money out of one of my pockets and put it into the other? Can I at least be exempt from the tax needed to pay for the compensation, since I have an oppressed ancestor somewhere in my family tree?

I am all for helping those who are truly in need. I have no problem with giving someone a leg up if they need it. (Heck, I’m a Democrat. I have to believe in that stuff. It’s in the manual.) I do have a problem with handing out goodies based solely on a person’s race. Aside from violating the principle that we are all equal under the law, the notion is wildly impractical when applied to real-world circumstances.

 Yeah, we're all just a bunch of hard assed jerks who don't give a flying leap about any other human being. Actually I have no problems with the government paying restitutions to the individuals they wronged. Such as the Japanese placed in internement camps during WWII. However I have a huge problem with them paying restitutions to the ancestors of those the government wronged in the past.

Marc

I was just kidding about the what Americans are owed. Notice the wink at the bottom of my post. As it happens, though, I am having a discousion similar to this over in my “Did We Pick the Right Founding Fathers?” thread.

If you have read it, then you will know that I am not an admirer of the US constitution.

:slight_smile:

I don’t recall that anyone actually suggest we pay anyone anything. But I do recall an awful lot of protest from you guys about grants, loans, scholarships etc. things of which there are plenty to go around for all Americans. Just you “good old boys” can’t stand the idea that someone might take away your upper hand. And by the way, I too have some of that Native American blood but it is so small as to be insignificant. Lord help me I’m so sick of hearing this damned reverse discrimination whine!

Needs

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10…

Needs2know-

There is a disturbing pattern to your posts on this board. Instead of debating an issue rationally, and drawing upon facts to support your position, you seem to spend most of your time attacking posters with whom you disagree. If you ever wonder why you draw so many hostile responses, there’s your answer.

If you have anything to add to this debate, other than calling other posters “good old boys” or “rednecks,” I would be delighted to hear it.

To respond to your last post, yes, there are folks out there calling for financial restitution to be paid to Native Americans (and to the descendants of former slaves, but that’s a topic for another thread).

Do you believe restitution should be paid? If so, to whom? Do you believe the government (as opposed to private institutions) should offer financial benefits of any kind (whether by cash payout or by tax benefits or scholarship grants) based solely on the criterion of race? If so, why?