This, and a couple other things you’ve said, suggests to me that on some level you feel like wanting to sleep with a girl is, in and of itself, disrespectful, and that you have to build up enough “respect capital” to overcome the inherent insult of showing your desire.
If that’s true, my next question would be why–do you, on some level, think of sex as sorta inherently dirty/undignified/disgraceful (especially, perhaps, for women?) or is it more that you think of yourself as inherently dirty/undignified/disgraceful and that it seems presumptious to be interested in a woman?
I may be totally off base with all this, and please don’t hesitate to tell me, if so.
I think there’s a lot of truth in this. A lot (probably most) men are brought up to believe that “If you work hard and follow the rules, you’ll succeed in the end.”
The problem is that most men learn their first rules about women from their mothers. And the primary message they get from their mothers is “be polite and well mannered.” When that fails to get them anywhere, they either believe the “rules” have failed, or that women are breaking their part of the agreement.
Boys need to learn that the stereotypical men’s rules also apply to relationships: you have to take chances to get ahead, make yourself get noticed, and if you fail, pick your self up, stop whining and start over.
No, you wouldn’t. Because like “Nice Guys” that isn’t really the issue.
“Nice guys” are often nice. They aren’t necessarily passive aggressive jerks (although some of them are). But they have some other flaw. It may be clingy. It may be passive aggressive. It may be personal hygiene. It may be their lack of career employment and not realizing that at 24 it is no longer appropriate to be living with your parents and working at Target as a night stocker. It may be something shallow like weight.
Likewise “men are intimidated by my intelligence” - they may be smart, but there is some other flaw at play. Bitchiness. Clingyness. Personal hygiene. The “I’m always right” problem. Or something shallow like weight.
Not that neither of these people will find true love - a recent trip to a Jonathon Coulton concert proved to me that there is someone out there for every one.
Not exactly. There was someone else that I was sort of interested and I also thought she might have been interested. One time at work I was sitting at the computer and she stood close enough to me that I though she was pressing her boobs against me on purpose. But I didn’t pursue that either because I thought I might have a shot at my friend.
Oh no. You are absolutely 100% correct. There is definitely a part of me that believes that, a part of me that gets weaker everyday.
The reason why is this: The message I received from “women” (I put women in quotes because this isn’t from individual women but from the collective female voice of all the stupid media shit that’s supposed to represent women. Every idiotic TV show, movie, magazine article, etc. that expresses female opinions) is “Men are pigs, men are pigs, men are pigs. They are assholes that we tolerate because we need to get married and have kids one day but given the choice we would rather not have men around at all. Oh god why won’t men just LEAVE US ALONE.” I didn’t realize until recently that I thought this. I think I had a lot of self hatred about being a man buried deep down that’s been affecting me for a long time. I have been dealing with those feelings. I actually went to therapy last year.
As for sex being sorta inherently dirty/undignified/disgraceful (especially, perhaps, for women?) this is going to sound shocking but I’m actually pretty sex positive. I listen to Savage Love podcast and the Sex is Fun podcast regularly and I’m a fan of Betty Dodson “The Grandmother of Masturbation.” It’s only when I put myself into the equation that the negative feelings about sex kick in.
I think another thing is that a lot do feel some hostility towards men and will react negatively if a guy approaches them. The book Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent has chapter about this, if you’re interested. But then, I’ve never actually hit on a woman before so I could just be talking out of my ass.
I somehow posted before I was finished so here’s the rest of what I was going to say.
I didn’t like the image of the player and so I rejected it. But instead of just rejecting the negative aspects of being a player I rejected everything about being a sexual man. Pursuing women, asking a number of women out, being aggressive but not hostile. The idea of asking a woman out more than once and not talking no for an answer just seems wrong to me.
Oh and by the way I feel honored that you responded to one of my posts Manda JO. You’re one of my favorite members and I’ve saved a couple of you’re particularly insightful posts.
Pursuing women isn’t being a “player”. That’s being a heterosexual male. You have no idea where you are going to find that special someone. So the best thing to do is meet as many women as possible and see what happens. Repeatedly asking a girl out after she says no is weird, creepy and jerkish though.
“Players” are guys who just go around having sex with as many people as possible. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about when you see a girl who looks interesting, you strike up a conversation. If there is mutual interest there, you go on a date. If the date goes well, you go on another, eventually having sex and so on.
I once thought like you. Well, when I was like 15. I focused too much on being “friends” first and then having that evolve into a romantic relationship. That, of course, did not work well.
What I found was the key is to relax and not overthink everything so much. I can go on a date or even sleep with a willing girl without it having to mean anything. Although I generally prefer being in a relationship than random one night stands.
The obvious problem with being an almost 30 year old virgin is that you are a bit behind the curve. Your high school and college years and your early 20s are the formative sexual years. It’s a very forgiving time when you will be surrounded by lots of young women, all equally clueless as you about relationships and sex. As you get older, women start developing baggage which adds additional complexity. I fear you may not be prepared due to your inexperience. Then again, you only need to find one girl if it’s the right one.
Anyhow, the point is stop treating girls like your kid sister and man up. Be like “Look. I like you and you like me. Tonight I’m taking you out for a steak dinner the size of a toilet seat.”
I married I guy I’d been friends with for eleven years before we started dating. It can work - but in this case, it wasn’t that I spent eleven years saying “no.” We spent eleven years dating other people. Since for eleven years we were never single at the same time (once we were, and at the same place, for about four hours - but didn’t manage to seize that moment), not dating was a lack of opportunity, not a lack of interest.
And women who aren’t interested in you CAN be worthwhile friends, as long as you realize that the chances she is going to eventually decide that she is romantically interested in you are pretty much nil and you move onto friendship - not ‘hanging around hoping she changes her mind’ - which isn’t friendship - its creepy.
But yeah, one of the issues ‘nice’ guys are prone to is that they treat their interest in someone as a monogamous relationship. Meet her, find her interesting, ask her out, she says no - move your interest somewhere else as fast as you can and repeat. This is not disloyal to her, she said no. If you still find her interesting as a non-romantic friend, stay in touch. If you don’t, there really isn’t any reason for you or her to initiate or keep in contact, unless you have mutual friends.
(Women do this too, they move one date into a monogamous relationship - or even just a crush - so they don’t make themselves available hoping that the guy they are interested in will call them).
Respectfully, I must disagree. How about stop treating them like unapproachable goddesses and start treating them like your kid sister? Your annoying kid sister?* You wouldn’t dream of being “nice” to your annoying kid sister, would you? Instead you’d tease her, bust her balls, and give her a hard time, all with the subtext that if bad mojo went down, you’d be right there to protect her. But in no way does she have any real power over you.
Be the jerky big brother, bruthah!
[size]*Your annoying kid sister that you’d like to boink the crap out of, if only she weren’t such a little brat. OK, I need brain bleach now.[/size]
You spend all your time thinking,“Oh woe is me. Nobody UNDERSTANDS how I FEEL” and somebody nails it in one. I was treating my interest as a monogamous relationship. I went to Hawaii a couple of years back hoping to meet someone but I didn’t because in the back of my mind I was thinking, “I can’t be unfaithful. Sure, I never indicated any interest whatsoever but still that would be cheating.” Goddammit.
And I’m not hanging around with the hope that she might change her mind. I genuinely like her even without the possibility of sex. I can be friends with women who aren’t interested in me. I think it’s essential to have nonromantic female friends so that you don’t put women on a pedestal.
And women who aren’t interested in you CAN be worthwhile friends, as long as you realize that the chances she is going to eventually decide that she is romantically interested in you are pretty much nil and you move onto friendship - not ‘hanging around hoping she changes her mind’ - which isn’t friendship - its creepy.
QUOTE]
Or, to use one of my other patented analogies…
Hanging around a woman who doesn’t love you in hopes that she’ll suddenly come to her senses and see how perfect you are for her is like sitting in the front row at Yankee Stadium every night, hoping the manager will notice you and put YOU in the game.
Point being, it’s FINE to fantasize about an unattainable woman, just as it’s fine to fantasize that you’re Derek Jeter. But you have to KNOW and ACCEPT that it’s just a fantasy.
Once you’ve accepted that, you can decide whether your unrequited love goddess is a fun person to hang out with, and whether its fun to watch a ballgame as a spectator. If it is fun, then by all means, do it.
But if you find yourself grumbling constantly, “I’D be a better shortstop than that &#@&$ Jeter,” or “What does her stupid boyfriend have that I don’t have,” well, you’re just making yourself miserable for no good reason, and you ought to make a clean, permanent break.
On the subject of Nice Girls – I believe that they really aren’t much different than Nice Guys. A good working definition is that both will accept 2nd-class behavior in exchange for the morsel of approval that they’ll never get. The difference is that guys have a lot more at stake when it comes to getting dates. Nice Girls can often get dates just fine. Then they get stuck in relationships that are, to put it kindly, unsatisfying.
Of course it does happen that Nice Guys hook up with Nice Girls. And the relationship can be, well, Nice. But it can take them hours to agree on a restaurant.
Having just watched The House Bunny (which was actually surprisingly amusing in a kind of stupid way), I think I now know what a “Nice Girl” is. A “Nice Girl” is one who dresses like a frump or a dork and desexualizes herself so as not to appear “slutty” or because they have self-image issues. They may dress in baggy, oversized T-shirts or equally unflattering outfits. If makeover shows have taught me anything, women can make themselves appear 1000% hotter with a decent haircut, makeup and wardrobe.
I’ve never heard of that show, but it sounds cool. I used to watch Look Good Naked (is that on anymore?) and it was amazing the transformations those women went through. Notable was that the transformations were 90% internal.
{I noticed it is Manda again…Manda…are you me? Spilt personality maybe?}
This also goes with many other things…like job loss.
“Oh, something will come up”
It is a blow off…but the person hearing it doesn’t see it as much.
Like when complaining about no single, good men/women and hearing “Someone will come along” or “Don’t try so hard, let it happen” etc etc…they don’t REALLY think this, it’s just a blow off…a way to end the conversation and move onto something else.
The annoying thing about human nature is that once you stop treating your interests like a monogamous relationship and go out and have relationships - the female friends you have MIGHT start to see you as relationship material. Not that you should date someone else in an attempt to make your unattainable goddess jealous and have her suddenly say “I want him.” But rather, like when job hunting, you are more attractive when employed than not - in the dating world - having your friends see you in a relationship makes them think about you in a relationship. Once you are in a relationship you are free to become friends with attractive women without the pressure ‘availability.’ Setting yourself for the situation Brainiac4 and I got in where we actually were good friends for many years then had the convergence of availability.
However, do not make the mistake many guys do - when you are in a relationship you will discover more women flirt with you. This does not mean you should dump your girlfriend because all these other women really want you - they flirt because you are ‘safe.’
I think the equivalent to the nice guy who can’t get laid and is blaming the other sex for this situation is the fat/ugly chick who can’t get laid and is blaming the other sex for this situation.
Nice guy who can’t get laid and blames women: “I’m lacking in things that make men sexually attractive to women, but I’m a nice person, so why won’t they love me? Women are bitches.”
Fat/ugly chick who can’t get laid and blames men: “I’m lacking in things that make women sexually attractive to men, but I’m a nice person, so why won’t they love me? Men are pigs.”
Nobody cares if you are a nice person or if you have great personality, if you are lacking what evolution has made men and women attracted to.
I am PotLuck and I am a Nice Girl. I’ve been crushing on my best friend “Hank” for a while now, despite (or is that because of?) the fact that he’s utterly unsuitable for me as a boyfriend. This thread has been the slap in the face I needed to face up to some home truths: I haven’t outgrown my need to rehabilitate Bad Boys into men worth dating, and I’m wasting my time and energy hiding behind my unboyfriend when I should be opening myself up to the possibility of meeting and falling in love with someone right for me (or taking the risk of getting my heart broken by someone who isn’t). I’m meeting with Hank tonight to tell him we need a complete break (two-month minimum) from our several-times-a-day contact for me to figure out what happens for us next. Wish me luck.
Thanks to everyone who’s shared their stories and opinions here; you have no idea how much you’ve helped this total stranger.
