That’s not what tdn was saying though, he was saying that jerks have superficial qualities in common with the truly desirable trait (that is, generally, emotional stability and interesting qualities) but are actually faking it, and that the proper path is to be emotionally strong/stable without being a dick about it.
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Thank you.
I am in no way advocating becoming a jerk. I pretty much despise jerks. But jerks at least have spines (or pretend to). A mature masculine man has a spine AND knows how to treat people with respect.
Yes. The nice guy who, in anger/frustration acts more jerkish and it ‘works’ attributes it to acting more jerkish…when instead he has more personality.
You don’t have to be a jerk. You just have to act with more personality.
This is a bit a of a hijack, but it’s related to what we’re talking about. I’m a borderline Nice Guy. I don’t think all women want jerks and I do have a personality and a good sense of humor. When I’m talking to women I think I’m fairly interesting and I seem to be able to attract a woman every now and then. Where my Nice Guy traits kick in is when it feels like it’s time to make a move. I get so afraid of looking like an asshole who was only talking to the girl in question to get her into bed that I never ask anyone out on a date. Is there any way to get over this? I’m 29 years old and a virgin and I’m starting to wonder if I’m going to die a virgin.
Unfortunately, there are only two ways to get out of this trap–one inside your control and one outside it.
- Have the good fortune to be putting the moves on a woman who recognizes what you’re doing, sees you’re shy but not a Nice Guy about it, and makes the first move; or
- just cowboy up and ask the damn woman out already.
I recommend number 2–if you’re a nice guy anyway, and have been having a pleasant conversation, the worst that’ll happen if the woman is sane is that you’ll get expressly notified that she doesn’t see you that way (aka “The Friend Zone”) at that time.
What have you got to lose, really? You know your own intentions, and therefore you can tell yourself even if someone gets the wrong idea (which is much less likely than you fear) that you’re being somehow predatory because you’d like to go out sometime, they are the ones making judgments based on insufficient information.
I also hope tdn weighs in on this, as he’s been in the dating game more recently than I have and he strikes me as the epitome of the kind of confident but not jerkish guy you eventually want to come across as.
Hmm…
Stop being afraid of looking like an asshole? Stop apologizing for being a man? Realize that dating success involves risk, and that the occasional slap in the face is the price you pay? (FTR, I have never once been slapped in the face.)
Those are just suggestions. But I would venture that it’s OK to be a man with a sex drive. There’s no need to emotionally castrate yourself out of the fear that someone else might beat you to it.
Why thank you. 
I’m not there yet, but I work on it every day, and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. Nothing wrong with constant improvement, right?
But I still fight the urge to apologize for not liking ketchup.
I don’t think a “nice guy” necessarily starts out a creep, but he does ususally become one. I say this as someone who very early on in my life fell into the “nice guy” trap with a girl and later in life was the cocky asshole who treated a girl like trash while some “nice guy” wannabe-boyfriend looked on.
I think the reason Nice Guy fall into the trap is because of his inexperience and making the mistake of taking what women say on its face. As many have mentioned, men are much more upfront about the fact that physical attraction plays a huge role. Women, OTOH, are less likely to admit that they go crazy for guitar players and the like. Instead they tell men that they are attracted to guys that treat them well and have a good sense of humor. Inexperienced Nice Guy, being the naive dope that he is, takes this on its face, finds a girl he likes, and starts treating her really nicely since that’s what he thinks she wants. Fast forward a month and it becomes very apparent to Nice Guy that what he’s done, has, in fact, not worked at all. Out of a desire to be nice herself the girl refrained from smacking him down, and thus he, being naive, didn’t pick up on the signs that there wasn’t anything there. Now he feels like he was led on. Hence he probably becomes a little bitter. Thats what happend to me when I was fifteen. In my case, I learned the lesson quickly and resolved “Screw this trying to be nice, I’ll try being an indifferent jerk instead.” (I’ve since found a nice middle.)
But, and this is a big but, that doesn’t happen for everybody. There are two places where things can go horribly wrong. One, the girl is herself a manipulative jerk who is emotionally needy and isn’t getting anything more than sex from the asshole she is inveitably chasing. So, she does just enough to give naive Nice Guy hope and strings him along for a lengthy period. This is what shifts Nice Guy from dumb and a little bitter into a full fledged passive-aggressive dick as he eventually grows more and more resentful of the girl for showing him just enough intamacy to keep him around but dropping him everytime the asshole du-jour comes around. The second scenario occurs where the Nice Guy is denser than most and he just doesn’t get the big picture. The end result is essentially the same as scenario one. The Nice Guy thinks he is doing everything right, but slowly grows more resentful and baffled by the fact that the girl just doesn’t like him and concludes that there must be something wrong with her and/or women in general.
So to conclude, I don’t think most “nice guys” start out as creeps. They eventually become one to some degree or another, but in most cases it’s a result of some combination of their denseness and naivete, not an inherient jerkiness. And at least in some cases, it’s at least partially the girl’s fault.
Um… no.
It is never someone else’s fault when you’re a jerk.
Assholeness does beget assholeness. At the same time, “contributing negative factor in ongoing social education” does not equate to “at fault”, I’ll agree.
Did you even read what I wrote, the part about the girl being emotional needy and using the naive guy? Could you really fault someone for becoming a bit of a jerk in that situation? :rolleyes:
When did it become established that nice guys aren’t really nice guys? As someone with all the symptoms, I seem to have the choice of suffering in silence or raising the issue and being accused of being passive/aggressive and self-entitled.
And wasn’t this thread originally about women?
Of course I can. What, you had no choice?
Jerkish behavior by others is not an excuse for jerkish behavior by you. Thinking otherwise is exactly what makes people undateable. And unfriendable. And just generally unlikeable.
I’ve given this spiel before, but as a former “Nice Guy” who’s been married nearly 10 years, I’ll rehash it.
MOST of us males who’ve whined to ourselves about how women don’t like nice men KNOW deep down that our problem isn’t really that we’re too nice.
Yes, I’d get upset when I saw a woman I liked dating a jerk, but I was realistic. I KNEW such women weren’t rejecting me because I was nice. They were rejecting me because I was “nice BUT ___” (fill in any number of reasons, from “a little too nerdy” to “not that great looking,” to…).
Most self-proclaimed “nice guys” are probably in the same boat. If you’re a “nice guy,” can you look in the mirror and say honestly, “I’m a great catch, an ideal mate, and the only possible problem with me is that I’m too nice”? I’m betting not. I’m betting you’re flawed, you KNOW what your flaws are, and they have very little to do with being nice. You’re probably “nice BUT ___,” and you need to work on whatever your “BUT” is.
Is it that you’re a little overweight? Get to the gym. That you’re shy? Work on your confidence. That your favorite pastimes are playing video games and watching “Star Trek”? Branch out, and find some other interests that will make you more appealing to women.
That said, women make life awfully hard for nice guys, because they lie so regularly. Every episode of Cosmopolitan has articles bleating, “Why aren’t there any nice men out there?” Evey comedienne makes that a running theme in her act.
And when a “nice guy” reads or hears such things, it’s incredibly aggravating. It makes him want to scream, “Where are the nice men??? I’M a nice man, and nobody’s interested in ME! Stop LYING! STOP saying that a ‘nice man’ is what you want! It’s NOT all you want! You want a ‘nice man’ with a dozen other qualities! Stop building up my hopes!”
It’s a definitional issue–you can be a nice guy (I’m one) and as long as you’re not passive-aggressive or blaming “women only like jerks” for your relationship problems then you’re not a “Nice Guy”.
It was and to an extent still is, but obviously if you’re looking for “a female equivalent to the ‘Nice Guy’” then defining the “Nice Guy” is necessary, and that’s always contentious.
You are being pretty unreasonable, IMHO, if you expect some naive unexperienced guy to not eventually act jerkish to the unstable bitch who is leading him on. Frankly, some might say she deserved it.
You’re essentially advocating a turn the other cheek mentatlity, which is commendable, but ignores the reality that people tend to get pretty angry at someone who they believe has treated them badly (even if it is partially their own fault).
Bolding mine.
This is a lie how? This is simply a given. Would you settle for a woman whose entire being could be summed up as “nice”?
He’s a “naive guy” and she’s an “unstable bitch” and **I’m **being unreasonable?
It’s not the bad behavior that’s the dealbreaker. We all behave badly sometimes. It’s the part where you insist that your bad behavior is ALL HER FAULT because she MADE YOU BE A JERK that’s the dealbreaker. Take responsibility for your behavior.
True.
A Nice Guy will respond to jerkishness by whining about how unfair it is, while subconsciously inviting more of it.
A jerk will respond to jerkishness with more jerkishness or abuse.
A mature guy will not respond to jerkishness at all, because it’s unacceptable behavior.
Exactly. This is not a gender thing, this is a *grownup *thing.