Do wrestlers generally win fights?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ve been cruising a couple of martial arts boards. I’ve noticed the frequent claim that sport oriented MAs don’t train for real fights, therefore they are useless for self-defense.

I pondered this. I seem to recall from my youth that football players may be big & strong, but if you really wanted to get yourself beat up, the picking a fight with a wrestler was the best way to go.

So I’m asking for input on this. What is the Doper experience? Have you found, through experience or observation, that wrestlers are in fact unusually tough in fights? Or are they average? Or are they below average as the anti-sport martial artists seem to imply?

In eager anticipation,

js_not-the-figure-four-leglock!_africanus

2

Many martial arts schools focus on techniques at the expense of conditioning and full contact practice. Wrestling, and boxing require a focus on these things.

In my experience, conditioning and experience make a great deal of difference.

You’re pitting yourself against another man and there’re any number of things that can happen and be done. Experience lets you have “plans” (or counters or whatever you want to call them) to different situations because you can see things in terms of patterns, (patterns of limb placement, patterns of weight distribution, etc). Conditioning let’s you deal with the things that you didn’t adequately deal with through experience. :wink: Plus, it can take a lot of energy to fight. When you get tired, your reflexes and thinking go down hill more quickly than you think they have.

Full contact sport fighting, like boxing, wrestling, san shou, kick boxing etc require a great deal of energy, even if you’re you’r just going for 3 X 180sec rounds

3

My experience is that most fights that I’ve seen IRL usually involve the two participants wrestling on the ground anyway. Two or three good punches get thrown, then it’s straight to a wrestling match.

When I was in college at Oklahoma State, I lived across the hall from a wrestler. I probably outweighed him by at least 60 pounds. He would pick me up and toss me around like a rag doll.

IMHO, wrestlers are the most prepared fighters, stamina wise out there. Although I used to box in P.E. in high school, and three rounds would do most students in!

E3

4

As both a wrestler and a martial artist, I can tell you that, while wrestling does confer some advantages, it’s not the One Supreme Fighting Style. As many fights do end up with the participants rolling around on the ground, a wrestler’s experience does grant an advantage. However, a wrestler’s opponent doesn’t usually punch, kick or choke him - the objectives in a wrestling match are much different than a fight’s objectives. For example, many wrestling holds can be broken just by using your free arm to punch the guy.

5

In addition, wrestling is less effective in a melee, since when you’re wrestling, typically both parties are pretty much immobilized and therefore vulnerable, no matter who has the upper hand at any given time.

6

I would have to say the wrestlers I have know could kick the crap out of men twice their size. My SO is a wrestler has been since he was 5 years old he is now 31, he rarely lost a match and coaches now.

From what I have seen him do in fights I can think of no other person I would least want to be in a physical confrontation with, he would have to cut 30 lbs. in season in order to make weight, barely eat, run 10 miles a day, lift weights and practice 5-6 hrs a day, I have always been involved in athletics and cannot think of another sport more demanding, one in which you are supposed to perform at your pinnacle after you have barely had food, water & are already physically exhausted. He is in the best shape of anyone I have ever known. The stamina, the ability to knock somone to the ground lightening fast & hold them there while hitting them with the other hand is what I have seen him & his friends do in fights, the other person didn’t even have a chance.

7

I’m not sure if it helps one-on-one in a boxing ring. But I knew a bouncer that could put a guy in somewhat of a full-nelson and have him out of the bar in less than 10 seconds. It was amazing, this guy had that “sleeper hold” down pat. It wasn’t always totally drunk guys he man-handled either, and many of the guys were much bigger than he was. I guess you could say he had the element of surprise on his side, but when he got ahold of someone there was never any question that he was heading out the door.

Wrestlers work out to maximize their strength, quickness, stamina and balance. I would say someone that has trained their body to the limit in these categories is one tough customer.

8

First, what type of wrestling are we talking about? Greco-Roman? Submission Grappling? I would contend that if a expert submission wrestler gets you to the ground and you don’t have friends around, your best bet is to see if it isn’t too late to make friends. It’s just not true that sport oriented MA’s are useless in real self defense. Boxers are a good example: nobody would seriously contend that Roy Jones couldn’t defend himself in a street fight. Same with MMA or submission wrestling (or even Greco-Roman); in a ring you tap out of a choke hold and the opponent releases you, but on the street you pass out, get a joint dislocated, or get a bone shattered. Sport MA’s will train like they fight.

And I concur with what Liquid Diamond said about Greco-Roman wrestlers: I sparred in submissions with a Russian guy who hadn’t done much submission before but had wrestled Greco-Roman for ten years, and man, that guy was tough. It was like wrestling a bear.

9

I was thinking of whatever they do in high-school. My reasoning is that we have a massive pool of American men who have trained in a non-combat martial art sport. If sport MA really were not good for fighting, then surely wrestlers wouldn’t fare much better than the average bear.

Of course, my signal-to-noise ratio will be pretty bad since this is a completely unscientific poll and I’m not counting in factors like conditioning and training time or trainining intensity. E.g. a year of high-school wrestling might be equivalent to three years of casual MA training in terms of the time spent on the mat. Let’s just call it a ultra-crude pilot study.

I appreciate all the input.

10

It depends on the person just like any fighting style. Any fighting style at all will give you the advantage over an untrained oppenent. But some people are built to be fighters and others are not. I wrestled for 5 years and sucked at it. I didn’t have the instinct, drive, or really the desire to be a good wrestler. I have had very little use for any of the skills in the real world as I avoid conflict like the plague. The couple of times I have used moves though it has suprised the hell out of oppenents. After five years of wrestling when you grapple with people things happen instinctually and they happen fast. I can single leg most people and have them on the ground running legs before they know it. And if I’m feeling mean I split them.
But I honestly believe if I came up against somebody with an equal amount of time invested in their fighting style I would lose.
Not because wrestling is flawed but because I am. I believe there is no superior fighting style, just superior fighters.

You got the wrong kind of wrestling buddy. I have never heard of anyone tapping out. Also there is no legal choke hold in wrestling. Also in my state moves simply for the purpose of causing pain were not allowed. You were allowed to cause pain if you are putting your oppenent in a pinning combination.

Things are a little easier and safer now. Now at the begining of the year you are given a body fat perscentage test. They then use that to figure out how much weight you can safely lose. Your governing body makes sure you never fall beneath you minimum weight. While some people still can cut 30 pounds, it means the natural 145 pounders don’t starve their way to 119. Practice and conditioning are pretty much the same.

11

Yes, but how would a wrestler compare to an equally skilled practitioner of BJJ?

Probably as well as a pro-boxer would fare in a UFC cage. Not well.

12

Oh, come on, give me some credit! I’m not talking about Freestyle or Greco-Roman when I talk about tapping out; I’m talking about submission wrestling and MMA. Reread my post:

Although I admittedly could have phrased it better, I’m not saying that Greco-Roman wrestlers use submission techniques or tap out. That would be silly indeed. I’m saying that Boxers, Greco-Roman wrestlers, Mixed Martial Arts fighters, and submission wrestling all can be used for self defense; as a specific example, the submission techniques of MMA and submission wrestling, like choke holds and joint locks, can be used to choke, dislocate joints, or break bones on the street. Sorry if unclear.

13

There was a for real down and dirty fight between a wresler and a football player once.

Dick The Brusier( a world champion wrestler), and Alex Karras (a big burly rough football player) in a nightclub(DAC) in Detroit.

Dick the Brusier won.

14

I was taught in High School all sorts of illegal holds, for the purpose of knowing what was illegal. Needless to say, we “overpracticed” these holds for later reference. These holds could do all sorts of serious damage. Wrestlers can do a lot more than just pin guys. At that time there were also some submission holds allowed. One guy on the team was an expert at one. I saw several matches where he won by forcing the other guy to concede. Once in such a hold, they had no choice if time wasn’t running out.

It is true that the non-wrestler can punch, gouge, etc. But so can the wrestler. The wrestler can also do more. Advantage: wrestler.

The biggest mistake a non-wrestler makes on the ground is rolling onto their backs. This is a major tactical error. (It is also why pinning the shoulders is the definition of winning. If the opponent is on his back, he’s dead meat.)

But it’s just not on the ground. I have seen wrestlers demolish guys while staying erect. Don’t ever fight a wrestler if there is a wall, column, or some such around. You will get repeatedly knocked into it at full force.

15

ftg , why is rolling to one’s back an error? Wouldn’t you then have access to your opponent’s eyes, nose, throat and groin? If I was on my stomach, I would have fewer options, and he could easily choke me out, couldn’t he?

Assuming my opponent was on top of me, that is.

16

When asked if a boxer could beat a Judo black belt in a fight (or if X could beat Y) my Judo instructor, a man who has coached for the US Olympic team always said that in a fight, the person who got in the first good shot wins.

17

Wrestling is great for takedowns and immobilization. Just about as good as any MA gets in those areas. And every fighter should be able to sprawl.

Pretty weak in terms of submission/incapacitation, tho. Pinning an opponent’s shoulders is of little strategic benefit in a fight. Need to know how to use your opponent’s clothes, use and respond to the guard, etc.

The “rules” of any “sport” necessarily limits that sport’s applicability to actual fighting. I would be hesitant to tie up with someone if I did not intend to choke them out, injure them, or cause them significant pain. No strong urge to drop in a gravel alley to cradle a mugger. What do you do then?

Bottomline, when facing off against a wrestler/grappler, don’t let them tie you up/take you down. Of course, once they do take you down, you can always have your buddy come up and plant a steel-toe against his head.

Wrestling does provide a good base for MA training. Greco-roman moreso IMO than what you are probably familiar with in HS and college matches.

Final observation - every one of the very many wrestlers I have trained with is a tough SOB. Boxers are incredibly tough as well. As far as the other MAs are concerned, just about the only style that I believe has as consistently tough practitioners is muay thai. Those fuckers are crazy.

18

If you are lying on your back on the ground you are basically in the same status as a turtle. You pretty much can’t do anything. To punch well, you need to draw your arm back, no can do, the ground is in the way. The guy on top of you also has access to your soft parts and can punch you and do another 1000 things you can’t do.

Again, so many people, once they get on the ground, roll onto their back. This is flat out stupid. Even a non-wrestler can now hurt you big time.

If you are face down to the ground and the opponent tries to choke you there are 2 main cases:

  1. You are lying flat. A wrestler in such a situation draws his arms up to his chest, hands near his head. It is hard to choke someone with their arms like this. But the chances of a wrestler being so prone is low… .

  2. You are on all fours. The choker, when he puts an arm around your neck is in an ideal position for a roll. He is now on his back and you are on top. A good wrestler can do this to someone weighing 50% more in a blink of an eye. Note that a wrestler on top of someone in such a position hangs back behind the shoulders, pinning an opponents leg with his, to avoid such moves.

In either case, the opponent going for your neck means that he isn’t trying to control other parts of your body, like one or both arms. That is a big mistake agains a wrestler. It only takes a half second of freedom and the tables are completely turned.

In this thread, and a recent similar one, many, many people have many naive, untrue statements about wrestlers.

Let’s clear up 2 things:

  1. “What good is pinning in a fight?” Wrestlers in fights don’t pin the opponent. They hurt the opponent so much that they can’t/won’t fight anymore. In matches you pin, in fights you hurt. Standard wrestler training teaches you plenty ways to hurt. I never saw a fight by a wrestler that led to pinning. That’s just plain stupid to even bring up the issue. (Mock fights sure, but not real fights.) In “friendly fights” I would just knock them on the ground, face down, and do the “chicken wing” on them. I can hold a guy in a “chicken wing” for hours.

  2. “Well, I can do X but a wrestler can’t.” Maybe a wrestler can’t legally do X in a match, but in a fight they sure can. The wrestler can do X and Y, you can only do X. Guess who has the advantage?

I have seen all sorts of bodily damage in legit wrestling matches (and in practices). Weirdly twisted backs, dislocated joints, a few broken bones, lots of bloody noses. If you aren’t tough enough, you won’t last long as a wrestler. I had 2 state finalists on my team near my weight. We practiced together a lot. They had no problem hurting me in practice. I learned how not to get hurt.

I have some respect for kickboxers and judo experts. None for boxers, joe karates and the like. But even for kickboxers and judo experts, if I get in close and start grappling, it’s over. So they get at most one kick or throw. If they do get the first shot in, if it isn’t perfect, my turn.

19

ftg - despite the (IMO) unnecessarily snarky tone of many of your comments, I’ll respond simply to observe that any number of chokes and arm attacks, not to mention reversals, are available from the guard - i.e. while on the ground on your back. I guess I will have to take your word for it if you tell me that you rolled with a number of experienced BJJ guys, and they gave you no trouble when they had you in their guard.

Sure, wrestlers can hurt people. Especially in takedowns. Heck, dropping someone onto their head, shoulder, or back is going to inflict more damage than just about any punch or kick. Of course, most wrestlers I know didn’t train rolling on pavement or gravel… Moreover, in competition, wrestlers are aware that moves judged likely to injure an opponent earn them a quick DQ. To some extent, how you train affects how you fight.

Unlike you, I have considerable respect for the boxers I have worked with, both in terms of the ability to mete out and withstand punishment, as well as their mobility. It seems - at best - incongruous that you would have “some” respect for kickboxers, but not boxers. You might benefit from seeking more boxers to train with.

I maintain that in terms of fighting effectiveness, a grappling art must be judged on (at least) 3 criteria: 1) the ability to achieve superior position; 2) the ability to maintain that superior position; and 3) the ability to finish/incapacitate your opponent.

IMO&E, wrestling EXCELS in the first 2, but is severely lacking in the 3d. For that reason, a wrestler desiring to effectively defend himself will supplement his style with finishing moves from other systems. Sambo, BJJ. (Note that in my 3-part system, BJJ is better than wrestling at #3, but worse in #1. So a BJJ guy would do well to learn from a wrestler.)

Your post does support one other aspect of my experience - a significant percentage of wrestlers do seem to be cocky bastards.

20

You’re going to get an elbow to the brain stem and be four-wheelin’ it like Christopher Reeves. Wrestlers are also very easy to choke, at least in my experience. But that’s not why we’re here, we’re here to gather some evidence as to whether sport MAs are helpful in real scraps.