What? The context of what he said was, yes, that it was obnoxious that many women/feminists are condescending – but it wasn’t in contrast with it being okay for MEN to be condescending. It was very clear from his post that he was drawing the parallel with “women being the same as men in private” because he finds the condescension etc unseemly from BOTH sides of the aisle. Of course you have a right to be condescending, but you can’t really be surprised when people call you on it. People have a right to point out you’re being obnoxious too, man or woman.
I’m a guy, and I consider myself a sex-positive feminist. I do not associate myself with feminism in general, which is too strongly dominated by anti-porn, rape culture feminists for my liking.
The point is that if being a feminist is all about equality and the right to choose how you live your life, that includes allowing others to choose how they define themselves. None of this “Down with the patriarchy! Live your life free of oppression (but only in ways we approve of)!” BS.
For someone who finds condescension unseemly, that poster has spewed enough condescension of his own. Lifeboats and street mimes indeed.
Fine, I’m obnoxious. I’m not surprised. These threads always descend into this sort of bickering.
I am thrilled when people support the agenda, as many posters in this thread have alleged.
But this harping on not being a feminist in itself hurts the movement of women’s rights, as I have explained in several posts. It removes a useful term, and it empowers voices from the crazy side. Be feminist despite the minority of feminists you do not agree with, just as you would still be a Christian or atheist despite the minority you do not agree with. Otherwise you are letting them define the term.
I appreciate your point, but I’m more interested in who I’m perceived as being and who I perceive myself to be than reclaiming a word I’m not particularly fond of anyway.
It’s funny you mention the “atheist” label. For a while there, I called myself an atheist because, strictly speaking, I am one. But as much as I like and admire people like Richard Dawkins, I don’t identify with their hardline “religion is junk” stance–I identify more with the views of people like Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I’d rather people think of me as one of that group than one of the New Atheists. So I call myself an “agnostic”, which is how Sagan identified himself and how Tyson self-identifies as well.
My main purpose is to convey ideas; language is merely a means to an end. If I want to be understood, I choose words as the listener understands them, not as I think they should be understood.
A fair point. And I understand your point about atheism as well, although I would say that being agnostic and being an atheist are different things. Not at all incompatible, I would describe myself as an agnostic atheist, but separate nonetheless. I personally don’t want specific people and their behaviour to dictate the meaning and connotation of words, though I concede that, to an extent, they do.
Of course you are right that everyone can define themselves however they want, and I am genuinely glad that you support women’s rights. I’m just hoping for some pride in the word feminism again. And I think by defining ourselves as feminists and being good people we are a part of defining the term, it’s meaning and connotations. 
Maybe I misunderstood. The exchange with you started when I posted my experiences in a manner that I tried to make sincere and lacking in obnoxiousness. You responded with a flip sneer about feminism silencing men–something that wasn’t remotely what I said. When you followed up with yet another flip sneer, I thought it was directed, again, at what I’d said.
And please avoid the “tone argument” argument. I’m not talking about strident feminists whose tone makes men defensive. I’m talking about manipulative, bad people who are looking for a license to be shitty toward people, and who happen upon feminism as a particular license to be shitty, and use its cover to be shitty. I’m talking about them being shitty, and getting called on it. That’s not being defensive: that’s refusing to be the target of shitty behavior, no matter what its cover.
There are plenty of other covers that shitty people use for their shitty behavior: “Oh, I guess I’m not politically correct, ha ha!” or “I just call 'em like I see 'em” or “I don’t think every female in this thread is emotionally crazy.” Those aren’t acceptable either.
Treating people shittily is unacceptable, full stop. My point was that some people use the cover of feminism in specific situations to treat people shittily, and that’s unacceptable. Of course it’s unacceptable in other situations as well.
Thanks LHOD, you said something I’ve been trying to formulate a post on for a bit now. Down to the “tone argument” argument which I was having trouble conveying. What it comes down to to me is that a lot of feminists (or perhaps “feminists”), nobody in this thread, mind you, just in general, latch onto the “tone argument” idea perhaps a bit too strongly. So they take it beyond its original intent – to stop men from going “oh, isn’t she cute when she raises her voice like that?” and disregarding someone’s opinions or argument because they dared to infuse it with emotion or using poor word choice – and took it to mean that absolutely any pointing out that you’re being an asshole is you “trying to shut them down”.
Yeah, it’s a fallacy to disregard a logical argument because it was delivered abrasively, nobody should say “you’re being an asshole, therefore your argument is invalid.” But there’s nothing wrong with “you’re incorrect because of statistic/point/study XYZ, also you’re being an asshole.” Or even “I don’t want to continue this discussion, whether you’re right or wrong, because you’re being an asshole and I refuse to be treated like that by a peer since it makes me uncomfortable.” The “tone argument” argument is meant to prevent flippant labeling of your points as incorrect because you phrased something badly, not give you immunity to being called out on being an asshole.
Again, I, personally, don’t think Two Many Cats, or anybody in this thread, went quite as far as that, but I have noticed it used ad nauseum elsewhere and it’s definitely something that’s abused far too often.
I notice a lot of misogynists tend to be divorced males.
I understand relationships are hard, and all that, but this is what I don’t understand: Why are you blaming all women for the fact that you made a shitty choice? Because that’s what happened. You married/hooked up with her, you stayed with her long enough for her to fuck you up, and you want to blame all women for your poor judgment. I don’t get it. (I’m assuming she didn’t beat you or anything. If you didn’t leave because you actually feared for your life, that’s different, but it still doesn’t excuse blaming all women for the crazy bitch you married.)
I don’t see how “I’m about to be fucked by the courts” translates to “misogynist”, “blaming all women” or “crazy bitch”. Nor do I see how it translates to “poor judgment”, unless you are trying to claim that it’s simply poor judgment for a man to marry at all. Which is certainly an arguable position.
To answer the OP, yes, I consider myself a feminist. I’d describe myself more as a champion for gender equality, though, because I really think the gender binary is harmful to society. Most women and men do have innate differences but not really enough to completely justify the distinction made between ‘‘male’’ behavior and ‘‘female’’ behavior. I think a lot of it is cultural conditioning and concepts of ‘‘man’’ and ‘‘woman’’ are socially constructed. If a woman feels like being feminine, fine. If a man feels like being masculine, fine. I have no problem with that and I acknowledge that some of that is probably innate. As a female, I love being a woman and doing many womanly things.
The problem I have is the social pressure that the outliers face to conform to this gender binary. The example used upthread of men being socially and professionally castigated for child-rearing is a good example of what I think is harmful to society. I do not see it as a zero sum game.
Mithrander, if I attributed some viewpoint to you that you do not hold, I apologize. My point still stands for all the whiny people (men and women) who blame half the planet for their own shitty relationships.
On re-read: yep, Der Trihs is right, I totally attributed a viewpoint to Mithrander that he did not express. I saw what I expected to see in this thread rather than what was there. My apologies.
I think the time for the ‘‘who has it worse’’ pissing match has passed. Downplaying the genuine concerns of the other side will not advance either cause. I have little tolerance for misandrists or misogynists, because grow up already. The world is full of beautiful men and women and everything in between.
Incidently, for those who keep bringing up FGM as a reason that feminism is needed- the local feminist group in my city (my housemate occasionally goes to the meetings, though she was horrified at this too) recently decided at a meeting that the genital mutilation of girls in other countries is not something they want to oppose, as that would be culturally insensitive, and they didn’t feel it was a decision for English people to make.
Apparently the fact that women regularly are the perpetrators of FGM also makes it unfeminist for anyone in another country to campaign against it. According to my local feminist group, it appears that no-one in this thread is a true [del]Scotsman[/del] feminist.
Wow, was not expecting this much or a reaction. In my own defence, I’m usually more even tempered about the whole battle of the sexes issue. Yesterday was a lot of bad news on too little sleep. Normally, I remember that posting on the internet in that condition is rarely a good idea, which is why I’ve only got 115 posts in over seven years.
And to make it clear, I am addressing gender issues in north america only. So no arguments about female circumcision. (Which I agree is mutilation, sucks big time, and has nothing to do with gender issues in North America)
Yup, knew that mime thing was going to backfire on me about three seconds after I hit the post button. What I was trying to say is that there is an expectation that every man in this culture will pay his way. Men are pushed into employment in a way that women are simply not. This is definatly changing as the workforce changes, but the idea still exists.
The example that really chaps my ass right now is my personal one. My soon to be ex-wife wanted to be a stay at home mom. Given our financial situation, at the time that was reasonable. Child care would have eaten most of her salary. Fast forward to eight years later. All the kids are in school. I ask her about going back to work. She agrees that she should. Two years later, she’s still unemployed. She’s had two extremely part time jobs, both of which she quit, cause they were hard. :rolleyes: So, guess who gets to work two jobs instead to pay for everything? This does not lead me to thinking that women in this culture are downtrodden and need to be rescued.
I love this chick. I’ve just discovered her, and it’s been quire reaffirming to find out that women see that there’s lots of shit going both ways in gender issues.
Thank you. I’m not even saying it’s most feminists, most of whom I believe really want equality. But sadly, its the loudest members of the movement who get the attention.
I actually like women who are willing to say mean things and won’t let society dictate that they have to be “nice” to everyone. Doesn’t mean that I like being talked down to like a child.
I used the seats on a lifeboat comparison to show that in this culture, men are considered more disposable, and that idea is older than anyone posting here. Does it happen often? Probably not. Want to tackle the whole dying at work thing? In Canada alone, 5 people die every day on the jobsite. Over 90% are men. That is happening every day. Got a flippant comment for that one?
Thanks Jradon, you put it better than I could. That is exactly what I meant.
I’ve tried to post a reply to this several times, but each time it just gets more pit worthy and less appropriate for this forum. For the record, I don’t blame all women for the things she did. It was just seeing for the first time that gender issues are not near as one sided as the standard feminist line makes them appear to be.
Sorry, didn’t see this before I posted. Thank you for the apology.
I agree the pissing match does nothing for anyone on both sides of the conflict. However, there is this idea where as a straight white male, you are considered to bask in privilege, and therefore you can’t have it worse at all. Never mind who actually has it worse, as a man, you’ve hit the genetic lottery, and you’ve got it made for life. I … struggle with that idea.
And as a feminist, I never said feminists can’t be stupid sometimes. There are plenty of Christians who remain Christian despite the Klan or Westboro. Plenty of animal rights activists who continue to work at local shelters despite animal liberation nonsense. Being part of a movement doesn’t mean I inherently have to accept the crazies. I don’t have to accept someone else’s bastardization of my beliefs.
It most certainly does happen in America. Not that, that has any relevance to your point, but thought I’d correct that tidbit.
Refusing to take responsibility for relationship choices is something that I’ve seen a lot in both men and women, and it drives me apeshit. I can’t tell you how many relationships I have seen fail, how many ugly divorces I have seen. My Mom married/divorced four times, she has a complete blind spot when it comes to the opposite sex. The men she married were complete douches and she was outright abusive to them as well. She is the kind of person who would call you every week practically (or actively) suicidal to complain about her shitty relationship but never actually do anything about it. It’s really hard to witness someone you love repeatedly make the same mistakes over and over again. I am a little sensitive on that topic.
Full disclosure: I’m a social worker so the idea of privilege is generally something treated as a given in my social circles - so, biased. As a white woman who had a fairly disadvantaged background, I had a hard time coming to terms with the idea of white privilege in grad school. My initial feeling was that it was an attempt to wipe away every kind of injustice I had suffered myself, to say being an ethnic minority trumps all. We read the Pedagogy of the Oppressed which is one of my favorite books, and at one point Freire says something like, ‘‘There is an oppressor and an oppressed within each of us.’’ This resonated with me and as I learned more about other people’s experiences of injustice I came to realize that we’ve all got our stories of advantage and disadvantage. ‘‘White privilege’’ or any kind of privilege is really just about acknowledging the parts of you that were advantaged, and taking the steps to correct the imbalance of power.
It’s like, I came from this background thinking I had it pretty rough, and I have discovered this entire other world of human experience that I can neither relate to nor ignore any longer. It’s not always worse, but it’s definitely different. The neighborhood where I work has a very high rate of crime and drug abuse, and the reality these minority kids live in, many of them who can barely speak English - it just blows my mind. I’m a white woman who grew up in the rural Midwest - what the fuck do I know about living in the inner city? I could work there my entire life and never understand it, but what I can do is listen to what these kids are saying and helping them make positive social change in their communities. Now I know that there might be some individual kids in that neighborhood who have it pretty damn good, but that doesn’t change the fact that, on the whole, they are all living in a pretty fucked up situation that needs to change.
I do believe male privilege exists. I do not necessarily believe it’s intentional. I think it often comes from not having access to this entire experience of what it’s like to be a woman. I recognize that women have no access to the experience of being a man, either. Many similar-themed threads on the Straight Dope have opened my mind to the idea that maybe I’m just not seeing all the injustices men face because I’m not living them. That said, the statistics from a global perspective show a pretty stark disparity between the overall well being of men and the overall well being of women, especially poor, single, minority women. It doesn’t negate what men go through. Those kids being poor inner city Latinos doesn’t change the fact that I’ve had some fucked up experiences due to my sex, but I can honestly look at where I am and say I have more power, more influence in the world, more ability to express my own viewpoint than they do. That is privilege, and it is real.
Well, that’s some ignorance fought. The practice is illegal in Canada, and I’m shocked that its not illegal in the US as well. While I have my issues with gender issues and family courts, I don’t want women mutiliated either.
And given your history, I can see why. I’m not denying my responsibility in part for my marriage ending. But given my wife was and still is fucking some dude on the side, I’m claiming a smaller chunk of the responsiblity than she is. Not that it changes anything moving forward. She’s still the mother of my children, and for their sake I have to play nice and keep the peace.
Hmm .. some serious food for thought there. I’m pretty sure you’re dead on that a huge chunk of priviledge is based on people seeing the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Maybe if I could be a woman for a week, I’d see a whole different side of things, and that would moderate my position. But all I have is my experiences living as a man to draw from. Looking as impartially as I can, I have to agree that globally, men as a rule have it better than women. However, if you just look at North America, it’s not nearly as cut and dried. It’s balanced enough that I don’t feel the need to stand up for women, there are plenty of women standing up for themselves already.
No worries at all, friend. And I hope I didn’t imply that you’d want that either. Just thought I’d clarify, since I think that is an issue that a lot of people think about as “over there” when it definitely does happen here. And Europe. And really anywhere that you’ve got large populations of immigrants from the nations that practice it. Terrible stuff.