Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Thanks, olives - you’re getting at thoughts that have been formulating as I’ve been reading this thread, that I’m trying to figure out how to express.

I think that, like “feminism”, the term “privilege” has also taken on offensive, divisive connotations for many. It’s the go-to weapon in the Who-Has-It-Worst-Athon. But it’s not supposed to be about making people feel guilty for having problems, or dismissing their problems as trifling or illegitimate. It’s supposed to be a reminder of this:

Each of us is just one of many billions of humans on earth, and therefore, each of us only has direct knowledge of a tiny, tiny sliver of the human experience. We can also learn from others’ experiences, and can teach others about our own. But the vast majority of any one person’s understanding about the world goes unspoken and unshared with anyone else. There is a great deal of our experience that seems so natural, so universal, so obvious, that we don’t realize it needs to be explained to others. And there is also much that we would dearly love to explain if we could, but it must be experienced to be truly understood. I think that, although many of us consider ourselves to be so different from everyone else, we tend to feel this way about what are really very common traits, and fail to understand the ways in which we are truly, deeply different. And though we may often think, “I am a unique individual and an enigma; no one can really understand what it is like to be me,” it rarely occurs to us that, in the same way, we don’t really have a deep understanding of anyone else, either.

The point being that, in order to get along in the world, we have to extrapolate from our tiny sliver of experience, plus the infinitesimal knowledge we glean from others, about the entirety of what it means to be human. And amazingly, this works out the vast majority of the time. But naturally, there will be plenty of things that we consider par for the course, good and bad, which huge swaths of people will never experience, and might never even know about, by dint of their belonging to a different group than ours. And when we are granted an advantage by virtue of being in a specific group, especially when it’s one that we don’t consider to be valuable or noteworthy, that’s privilege. That’s why, when a white guy says, “Privilege? Have you seen my life? Being white and male has gotten me jack shit!” he is, in fact, providing a perfect example of privilege. He can’t see or feel most of the advantages of being white and male because they consist of a million little things that make up his lifelong experience of the world, and it would never occur to him that other people don’t have these same experiences. Why would it? The only way it would is if someone who was not white and/or male showed him that their experiences are different. And of course, that would depend on the other (non-white/non-male) person realizing that the white male has a different experience. And that doesn’t happen nearly as often as you’d think, either. Certainly, people who are on the receiving end of an injustice tend to spot it more readily than those who benefit, but it takes a really blatant set of circumstances for someone to realize, “Hey, this is happening to me and others like me, and *not *to those other people!” Because again, we tend to - we essentially have to - start from the assumption that what we experience is universal. So most of the time, even if we have a problem, we tend to figure everyone’s in the same boat. But as olives said, this means that everyone has some privileges, and everyone experiences some suffering and injustice. And some of those with the greatest privilege may also have the greatest suffering. They don’t always correlate.

The point, then, of discussing privilege, is not to figure out who has it worst, but to suggest that, rather than just waiting for people to notice an injustice, we should encourage everyone to look at the assumptions they make in their own understanding of how the world works, to consider whether other people may actually have a different experience, and to then identify whether there are systematic injustices in these differences, and if so, resolve them.

ETA: Hey, look Mithrander! You’re thinkin’ what I’m thinkin’! I still think it’s not as balanced for NA women as it should be, but yeah, boy am I grateful to be in North America! Yay privilege!

It’s interesting that you bring this up, because I know many self-identified feminists (including yours truly) who 100% agree that registering for the draft should be required of all US citizens upon turning 18. Or get rid of it all together, of course. It is not uncommon for feminists to believe that the draft shouldn’t exist at all, but if (because) it does, both sexes should be part of it.

One of the feminist arguments against women registering for the draft is an example of an argument that I personally do not agree with, but can understand the perspective: women should not be required to register for the draft until women have equal (ie proportional) representation in government. The idea is along the lines of with great power (disproportionately large amount of political power) comes great responsibility (having to register in case ‘you’ need to provide the necessary resources for the war ‘you’ wanted to have in the first place).

And please don’t try to debate me on the merits of the above argument; I already said I do not agree with it (I think it overlooks the equally important socioeconomic disparities between those in power and those who end up doing their dirty work, for one).

That actually is a myth:

Sure! How about the four servicewomen who have filed a federal lawsuit challenging the ban against allowing women in combat positions? Similar to the draft issue, there are a good number of feminists who have opposed the ban as sexist. There are a good number of feminists who also are pacifists or dislike having a huge standing army or the wars the US has started, so they would obviously oppose lifting the women in combat ban, but it’s because they don’t want anyone in combat, so not really relevant here.

As for the civilian work sphere, many of the fields that are higher risk also tend to be those that do not actually want women to work those jobs (construction, logging,roofing, steelwork, etc). Obviously that isn’t the attitude of 100% of men in those fields, but it’s damn common. Women who do work in those jobs or did for a bit will often describe hostile work environments, coworkers explicitly saying they don’t belong there, and more. It’s a bit disingenuous to create workplaces that are actively negative towards women joining and then complain that golly, women don’t want to work these jobs (clearly it can’t be because it’s made clear they aren’t welcome! Nope, no way).

“Man up” and things like it are part of the attitudes of traditional gender roles, which is precisely the thing feminists are working against! The people who most strongly espouse beliefs that men shouldn’t show emotion, men need to suck it up and deal, and so on are usually quite anti-feminist.

Now, if you’re talking more about a situation where women or feminists are discussing/explaining various disadvantages women have or discrimination they face, and someone (likely a non-feminist man) tries to derail the discussion by talking about all the ways men have it bad, that’s totally different. That’s not feminists telling someone to man up; it’s feminists telling someone to shut the fuck up for once and actually listen to other people instead of dismissing their concerns and problems and trying to turn the focus on themselves.

Example - I used to intern at a very high-end continued care Jewish retirement facility. I worked in the hospital section. It was probably the best possible care an elderly person can get. The retirement/assisted living section was a very active and tight-knit community full of educated and culturally refined people. They were privileged not only in terms of finances, but in terms of having this wonderful social and family network to lean on for support. And every once in a while we’d see someone come in who had to be sent back home after a brief stay because she had no insurance and no family, and the disparity would be very stark. And yet, some of these privileged nursing home inhabitants were Holocaust survivors. We had one lady with dementia who thought the nursing staff were the Gestapo. It’s one of those situations where you realize how lucky and unlucky a person can be in the same lifetime.

A lot of interesting ideas, which I am going to let stew in my head for a while. That lifeboat site was fascinating. You almost completely had me until the very end …

Bolding mine.

And that is exactly where the feminist movement loses it’s support with large groups of men. While I’m sure some men just want to piss on your cornflakes and ignore the actual issues that women face, in my experience, a lot of men are just trying to share the discrimination they face. In return, we are told to fuck off, because women have had it worse for millennia, and us men have had everything handed to us on a fucking silver platter. [Slight exaggeration] The craziest one I met actually believed that men needed to suffer more to make up for past injustices.

So I think it’s safe to say that **both sides **like to dismiss the others concerns and problems, and try to turn the focus on themselves.

I’d say that’s human nature. I don’t think feminism is dead, but I think it’s different now. I think my generation of women has been on the receiving end of a lot of advantages thanks to the actions of previous generations.

Like I’m 29, I want to have children, but we can’t yet, because my husband is still in school and we aren’t financially/situationally ready. I was talking to a woman at work the other day, a woman in her sixties, who talked about starting her family in her early twenties, and I told her how much I wanted that - to settle down. And she said, ‘‘Yeah, but you got to go to these great schools and travel the world… I didn’t have any of that. I had my kids and I had to take care of my kids.’’ I take it for granted that I even had a choice. Not every woman of my generation can say that, I’m sure, but it sure as hell is not the 50s anymore.

In fact, it’s generally the anti-feminists who don’t want women drafted. NOW came out with a policy statement that said either both sexes should be subject to the draft, or neither sex should be subject. Mind you, this was some decades ago. And this issue is STILL brought up, like it’s some sort of feminist doublethink.

IME, when men start talking like this, it’s meant to belittle any problems that women face. Most men who do this expect women to shut the fuck up when men (the important people) are talking) and keep a respectful silence. Some men do want to engage in a meaningful dialog…but in most cases, it’s men who say “But men get drafted!” in response to a listing of female disadvantages. The thing is, yeah, men get drafted…but that’s mostly men who are doing the drafting, and men who are refusing to make women subject to the draft, and men who refuse to allow women to take combat roles. Many men expect to talk over women, and to silence women in that fashion.

If men want to discuss the discrimination that they face, perhaps they shouldn’t try to take over a discussion that’s already in progress.

I’m also 29 and I find that, though I have a lot more options in my life than my mom did, there’s still a lot of pressure for me to ignore my career and make as many babies as I can muster. I really don’t want kids; I love my nephew, I think other people’s kids are great, but I just don’t want to be a mother. I’ve been married for a few years, and for every person who’s asked my husband about our lack of children, I’ve had at least two question why I’m not being a good wife and getting pregnant ASAP. It’s fine to want to be a stay-at-home mom, but it’s just not for me. However, there’s still a reasonably strong reaction, especially from women that I’m a horrible person for not placing being a mom of any sort at the top of my list of things I want to do with my life. I’ve talked with several doctors about different birth control options, and until I met my last two OBGYNs, I was more or less laughed at and told that I was silly for thinking that not wanting children was any more than a phase, and until I change my mind, I would be given a prescription for the pill of my doctor’s choice. It’s been a little ridiculous to say the least, but a very small part of my life.

Every generation of feminism has changed the face of it, and as a result the “average” feminist has definitely splintered off. I know I came across as shrill to some folks upthread, but honestly, I care mostly about everyone getting a fair shake in life. Whether this means being trusted to be honest when discussing something uncomfortable, being listened to when speaking, or not being made to feel ashamed of some aspect of one’s personality or sexuality when it comes about. I also care about consent of both parties within relationships of all sorts, especially ones of a sexual nature. If someone isn’t comfortable with what’s being proposed or what’s going on, that person should have a right to stop, object to what’s happening, and discuss either an alternative or a compromise that will leave both parties satisfied. No one should be made to feel alienated or threatened by social interaction or sexual/romantic interaction.

I don’t think that is true in general especially these days in the U.S. The vast majority of men will be happy to talk to women on an intelligent level about anything as long as she is willing give the same conversational graces back. That should apply anyone.

“Shut the fuck up” as you put is a related but separate issue. Only some women get that treatment (plus a few men) but there tends to be a big gender gap on that. The true masters of the art of non-conversation will drive insane no matter what they are talking about whether it is women’s issues or asking if the grass needs cutting in 10 minute monologue form. Men don’t tend to talk as much as women yet women still complain about other women that talk endlessly about things they don’t have much experience with. Much of female world seems the same way to most men.

Men are getting mixed messages in this thread however. The advertised claim is that feminism today is all about equality overall. You and others are still saying indirectly it is about primarily women’s issues and it is a male failure if we don’t sit and listen without contributing much about other cases of inequality. How do do you reconcile that?

This actually illustrates one of the central paradoxes endemic to thinking about people in large groups instead of as individuals. If we think about men as a unit, is the fact that men are drafting men an example of men being perpetrators or victims?

The answer, of course, is that the thinking breaks down at this point. The men who are doing the drafting are not the men who are being drafted, so thinking about it in large groups is not necessarily useful. There are some similar dynamics that happen with women, of course, albeit not as horrifying as warfare.

We need to be able to talk about social dynamics clearly, of course, but talk that even hints of assigning blame to one gender or another is generally unhelpful. Assign blame to individuals, if necessary, and discuss how social dynamics of gender affect individual choices, but don’t assign blame to a gender.

Hey, I flew to the UK, opened this thread again and it’s like I’m wearing Deep Wisdom Goggles! I need to read some of that stuff again, but thank you guys, for posting such insightful, valuable contributions.

Agreed, there’s been a lot of really great discussion in this thread, and I appreciate all (okay, almost all) who are participating in it.

I consider myself a feminist. Not just because I believe in gender equality (which is such a totally bland PC position anyway…who really is going to admit not being in favor of that?) but because I make a point of observing and speaking out against patterns of bias and discrimination that disadvantage one gender relative to the other.

I think feminists get a bad rap because goshdarnit, they complain. They don’t go around acting like the social order is fine and dandy. They challenge people on things like referring to adult women as “girls” and treating the color pink like a toxin. They make men feel guilty by pointing out the privileges that come with belonging to the male gender. So of course you’ll see men taking issue with feminists. The same way lots of whites can’t handle hearing about white privilege. It’s the same damn thing.

I harp on this point a lot on this board, but one needs only to go the movies to see that we still have a problem in this country with treating women as fully developed, multidimensional, nonobjectified people that serve a purpose outside of taking care of man. Women are just as afflicted with this blindness as men are. The day that we can talk about a female celebrity without the majority of the discussion being devoted to dissecting her face, body, age, or sexual desirability will be the day we can consider the feminist label truly outdated.

I had to vote the last option because I’m honestly not sure. I’m pushing 54 and like someone else said upthread, I don’t really ever feel as if I’ve been denied opportunities. I started working in the 1970s at my first “real” job and from about the 80s on, I’ve worked in pretty non-traditional, mostly male dominated fields.

The only thing I noticed that was different from then, to now, it a worse attitude from some of the men that I worked around. Certain stuff was winked at back then that is absolutely verboten now. For all of that, I have some pretty traditional views regarding male and female roles, particularly in relationships. When I was married, I absolutely took my husband’s last name (still have it matter o’ fact, never changed it back after my divorce, partly old-fashionedness because I didn’t want my daughter and I to have different last names).

I like men to be MANLY men, and sometimes that means putting up with…ummm…less-than-sensitive behaviour. And while in a relationship, I don’t put up too much of a fuss (in most cases) if a man wants to be the boss (unless it’s about decorating and then he better keep his mitts OFF my home :D). I’m also seriously in love with being a girly-girl “worship the ground he walks on, nurture and spoil him” kinda girl. Sadly, most men don’t really like that (they SAY they do, but they get bored easily and I’m just not a quirky, spoiled, bossy, interesting, plate throwing spitfire). I am not overly fond of the whole “metro-sexual” thing that was popular not too long ago.

Some of those things make me decidedly not a feminist. But when it comes to jobs and equal pay/treatment I am pretty adamant about equality, so in that way, I guess I am. So…after all these years, I’m still not sure.

For my own part, as a straight man, I can’t help but feel like it’s not for me to be a feminist, simply to support them, which I certainly do. That is to say, I can certainly have feminist sympathies, but it’s… not mine to fight, if that makes any sense?

But also, there’s the fact that when I think of the word ‘feminism,’ the second thing to come to mind (first, of course, being Gloria Steinem) is the whole whiny, dogmatic online social justice movement, which I think is an unbelievably toxic environment.

What with its hirs, and xirs, and zies, and microagressions, and privilege-checking, and tone arguments, and safe spaces, and lists of acceptable pronouns for people who identify as this or that or maybe as a horse, and all that nonsense.

Generally speaking, the men who object to women being drafted and who also object to women being allowed in combat roles are men with a military background. I’d break it down more along the lines of philosophical camps, though, of feminists and anti-feminists. Feminists are far more likely to think that the draft should not apply to only one sex, and also to think that women should be allowed to serve in combat roles. Anti-feminists tend to think the opposite on both issues. While both men and women can be feminist, feminists are more likely to be women. And while both men and women can be anti-feminist, anti-feminists are more likely to be male.

What about the women who object–what’s their background?

Thank you for posting this. I’m currently watching a third of her videos.

I do want to see more female protagonists in my preferred genre, and even started a Cafe Society thread to that effect a few months ago. But my reasons are pretty simple: I like X, so I want more stories about X.

For me, at least, I think this is wrong-headed.

For example, I think Michelle Jenneke is really hot, but that broadens my interest, it does not diminish it. I do not disregard her achievements as a hurdler because she is attractive, I disregard them simply because I don’t care about hurdles. But when a woman achieves something I do care about, like Tammy Duckworth, I don’t consider it any less significant just because she’s a woman.

Most of them seem to want to be in very traditional gender roles.

This sounds nice, because you’re talking about someone in a positive way. But by saying this, you’re also admitting that if she wasn’t hot, you wouldn’t give a good goddamn about her. And that is a problem that women routinely face that men do not. It’s “if you’re not hot, your invisible” bias.

I’m sorry, but I’m having a hard time understanding what you are saying here. You don’t disregard her achievement as a hurdle? Wha?

Though I’d like to emphasize “majority” please. I tend to want to yell “okay, guys, stop. Can we talk about her ACTING CHOPS? Plase.” in most discussions, if for no other reason than I find droning about about how hot or not somebody is boring as fuck, but some people (not necessarily you, just some people) take any mention whatsoever of a woman’s looks as absolute proof of shallowness or misogyny (or something lighter than misogyny, but still objectionable).

So yeah, focus the vast majority of the conversation on things other than looks, but don’t go so far overboard that you take pains to avoid mentioning it altogether. Especially since sometimes it can be legitimately relevant to the discussion (for either gender).