I think you need a cape. I have a very good friend that sometimes wears a cape.
If it’s elitist to judge people for willingly wearing pants with rips and holes in them, then I’m an elitist. Far too many people these days have blown right past “comfortable & casual,” and gone to “sloppy & slovenly.” Such people are very unlikely to contribute anything worthwhile to society.
Perhaps, but I generally like to dress low-key and tastefully. A cape may appear a bit too pretentious.
So the top hat and walking stick are right out…
Not poking fun at what you where wearing today. Sounds comfy.
The ripped pants are a fashion statement. I think it’s a silly fashion, but those folks are indeed following fashion cues. They’ll stop wearing ripped jeans as soon as ripped jeans are no longer “in”. Those folks are neither sloppy nor slovenly.
OTOH, the person in pajama bottoms and crocs says loud and clear “My appearance and my perceived social status mean nothing to me.” That is both sloppy and slovenly. Which ultimately is a form of selfishness. Not the grabby greedy gimme gimme selfishness, but the “Society does not exist. Other people do not exist. I alone matter in my mind.” sort of selfishness. It’s not anti-social; it’s asocial.
@Ulfreida was correct upthread when she decried the rise of large-scale asocial behavior. OTOH, she missed which was cause and which was effect. Clothes do not make a society. A society makes its clothes.
I’ve no idea but I share the skepticism that the individual doesn’t care.
We can’t help that we are social creatures living in a social environment: clothing choice always includes some consideration of what message about who are we want to express, they are an expression of who we feel we are, how we feel that day, who we want to be seen as, how much we want to be noticed or not particularly noticed, what we think is appropriate for the place and task of the moment, and what message to others about our place in that group.
That very expensive Florida restaurant with very expensive cars? The man there in a t shirt shorts and flip flops was peacocking that their status is so high they can be a slob there.
And definitely there are those who want to project an image that they don’t care about what image they project.
Other than some of those with severe clinical depression I suspect there are few who really don’t care.
I’m not sure it’s possible to not care what other people think - when people say “I don’t care what other people think” there’s an unspoken “I’ll do what I want anyway”. Which doesn’t actually mean you don’t care - it just means that you won’t let other people’s opinions affect your behavior . Which for better or worse is usually what you are communicating when you attend a formal event in tattered shorts. ( the other option is that you don’t know what people will think)
@DSeid two posts immediately above.
Well said.
I’d go on that the example of a fellow wearing scruffies to a wedding or funeral is really somebody who enjoys vandalizing social convention. He’s not indifferent to what others are doing and dressing; he’s hostile to it. And he’s wearing his hostility on the absent sleeves of his A-shirt.
Ref my immediately prior post, that’s either selfishness or oppositional. One thing it is not is indifferent. I suppose there’s a narrow window for indifferent in certain SES or other communities where “they all don’t know any different” would be an honest non-pejorative description.
ETA: And agreeing w @doreen just above.
But you’re hinting at the very point I’m curious about: if you’re going to assert that, no, that’s how a guy dresses if he’s selfish or oppositional and Not Indifferent But Hostile, and you’re then going to add that One Thing It Is Not Is Indifferent, then how do you figure he’d dress if he were indifferent?
(And if your answer really is that no such person is indifferent, then I’m not quite sure which of us would be in the proving-a-negative category.)
What, always?
Let’s say you’re right that there’s a guy who does want to so peacock — who, perhaps, changed into that outfit while chuckling in specific anticipation of once again going to that expensive restaurant to once again play Look At Meee, with my t-shirt and flip-flops; Look At Meee, are you Looking At Meee?!? I’m feigning indifference; Look At Meee!
And let’s say, too, that there’s another guy who changed into something, y’know, appropriate before going to that expensive restaurant.
Can we rule out a guy who, I dunno, simply wore that shirt-and-flip-flops ensemble that morning when grabbing breakfast at a decidedly inexpensive restaurant — let’s maybe say McDonald’s? Or maybe Burger King, or Waffle House, or whatever you want to fill in the blank with? — and figure he wasn’t peacocking then, dressed as he was like most of the customers there; and, well, can we figure he’s still not peacocking hours later when he gets hungry for dinner and walks into the expensive restaurant, still wearing the same clothes? And still with the same mindset?
@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper mostly two, but also one, post above.
That is an excellent logical conundrum. IMO it need not be a behavioral conundrum.
Psychologists tell us that most behavior is “overdetermined”. IANA expert, but as I understand the argot that means we don’t do things for one reason, we do them for many overlapping and reinforcing reasons. And that very few things we do are the result of a dead tie. There is a strong preponderance of preference behind whatever actions we take. Dead ties produce inaction, not action.
Connect that with the idea that most of our “decisions” really aren’t; they’re instead us simply acting out our habits in specific circumstances. I don’t decide which peanut butter or toothpaste to buy at the store when faced with all 27 varieties of each. I just buy what I bought last time. Yes, that was logically a decision, but it was a particularly weak-willed perhaps not even conscious one. It wasn’t a behavioral decision, at least not much.
Many folks, myself included, have said upthread that they have certain default modes of dress for certain circumstances. But within those preconceived individual categories, which thing they put on today is all but random from within that category’s stuff in the closet. Said another way, they are indifferent at the specifics while not being indifferent at the higher categorical level.
Someone might choose to be wholly indifferent to all clothing-related social cues, except the risk of arrest for indecent exposure. And some folks don’t even worry about that, but usually not for long.
Perhaps physical comfort or budget or pure insanity are the motivators for their decision. But they still expressed non-indifference when they went to the store and bought this but not that. At the very limit one might be truly indifferent to everything, buying the first 4 items on the rack in your size. But we’re getting into hair-splitting No Truly Indifferent Scotsmen by now.
I’m not sure I answered your question, but I’ve outlined how I think about your question. I’m curious to hear more about what you think.
My jumper is full of holes. On purpose. Because I like the look.
And it has exactly the intersection of fuck & all to do with my degree of contribution to society.
I’m not seeing the difference - I don’t let others opinions affect my behaviour, but I also don’t let it affect my emotions.
No not always. Like I said there are some of those who are severely clinically depressed, and I’ll add some with conditions that have significant lack of interest in or ability to understand social relationships, be that based on autism or delays or other, who would not fit that.
But otherwise? The person was aware of the social norms for going into a fast food restaurant and of the norms of a very high end dining restaurant. They placed themselves accordingly.
I get that my response may sound tautological or True Scotsman, but by definition not considering the social context when choosing clothing for a specific occasion is not a normal behavior for humans, even if the message being sent is caring that others hear “I don’t care”
At my wedding 27 years ago a good friend came in cowboy boots, jeans, nice shirt and cowboy hat. I took no offence at all, I doubt he owns a suit. And mountain living is very casual.
The last wedding I attended was paid for by my nephews new father in law. This was back east, and it was quite fancy. I dressed up out of respect.
Going to the grocery store now. Hiking shoes, shorts and fleece top - my usual.
I dress for both myself and others. I try not to violate the social norms of where-ever I am going too far, on the other hand, I want to be comfortable, I don’t want to have trouble walking (tight skirt) or worry about exactly how I am holding my legs (short skirt) and I want pockets. So when I went to my nephew’s “cocktail dress” engagement party at a private club that had a rather strict dress code, I wore a pants suit with a nice blouse, and changed from walking shoes to ladies flat pumps when I got there.
During lockdown, I decided that it would be good for my mental health to “dress for work” every weekday. It’s maybe the only time in my life that I was dressed more formally “at work” than many of my co-workers. (I did go barefoot, though. I don’t really like wearing shoes. And I wore shorts when it was warm. No one sees below the waist on Teams.)
I think it’s great that we don’t all have to advertise our status every time we step out the door! And I don’t think people all look the same.
I’m with you on all of that. I even found a good tailor who can put real pockets into pants that come with fake, useless pockets. The first time I gave him a pair of pants, I said, “I want men’s pockets”. Now I tell him how many inches deep I want them. (not cheap, but worth it to me.)
They may or may not exactly care what people think - but they are sending a particular message ( that they don’t follow norms) and they know they are sending that message and in most ( but perhaps not all cases) they intend to send that message. And in some (not all, but I think many) cases, if social norms changed so that it was unremarkable or even expected to wear tattered shorts to a wedding , they would wear a suit , or tights and a cape. Because they actually do care what people think - it’s just that what they want people to think isn’t usually what is meant by “ cares what people think”
There’s a whole lot of projection going on from people who believe in deliberately sending messages by their clothing choices.
I agree with this. It is what clothes say about society that I feel wistful about.
If you don’t let the opinions of others affect your public behavior, I’d say that is a fair description of selfishness. Your ease and comfort being the only regulator of your public behavior and presentation.
Although, I would suggest that there are very clear limits to your ability to act on this persuasion that only you matter. They are normally fairly invisible unless you transgress them. But they are there.