I am wondering how many people here actually believe that we’ve brought freedom to Iraq in any way shape or form.
I just read an article about Shi’ite Death Squads that work with the police in Iraq.
It seems like the greatest justification for being in Iraq is that we are afraid of looking weak by pulling out. This doesn’t sway me. It seems wholly immature as though we aren’t backing down from the kid who stole our lunch money. In case you haven’t noticed, we are the kid stealing the lunch money. If we don’t back down, we just look cruel. We need to just unilaterally pull out, we aren’t helping.
Of course we’ve brought freedom to Iraq. The problem is that many people do not understand the two types of freedom: freedom (from) and freedom (to). Iraq right now has a surplus of freedom (to) - basically many parts are in a state of anarchy, with no enforecement of laws by the central government. People are free to do almost anything, like murder, cause mayhem, etc.
There is very little freedom (from). Freedom from fear of persecution, etc.
Freedom isn’t like pie. You can’t just bring it.
As far as the looking weak to our enemies, well, there is nothing we can do to give a good impression to our enemies. It’s what our friends in the Middle East will think of us if we pull out quickly, that we need to think about.
I honestly believe that, for some things at least, it’s far too early to make a certain and lasting assessment. The bigger or more profound the goal, the longer it’ll likely take to reach it.
No, I don’t believe we brought freedom to Iraq. I don’t believe you can bring freedom anywhere. But you can try to create the conditions for Freedom springing up and taking root.
Sure and a thousand years later when we have eliminated the last Iraq through either bombing, fucking or organized sterilization, Iraq will truly be free, but of course we shouldn’t judge the methods being used before it plays out. No, I agree we should wait until its a complete clusterfuck and no country in the world can stay out of it.
How many major conflicts are there that you could ask at this point “Has freedom been established”? I don’t think it’s a bad question, but I do have reservations about when it can rationally be expected.
It was a major conflict, initiated just in March of 2003. You’d expect a progression through a series of benchmarks to have to occur, like removal of the heavily armed dictatorship, establishment of a functioning government, rebuilding of infrastructure, confidence in it’s security forces, etc before some more esoteric question like “Have we brought freedom” can be answered.
Either that or you can ask it now but should in all fairness continue to ask it each year because, someday, the answer’s gonna change.
No, right now I don’t think we’ve brought freedom to Iraq. Hopefully, someday, given a resolution to the insurgency, we’ll see it to be a decidedly better place.
Freedom is relative. No country has perfect freedom, so the relevant question is: Is Iraq, as a whole, more free than it was during Saddam’s rule. I think the answer is “yes”, especially since only a minority of Iraqis would prefer to return to the days of Saddam.
But, let’s not miss an opportunity to make the US look bad, right mswas?