Actually, at least three posters in this thread have expressed the thought that we needed to continue for purposes other than saving face. I do not agree with their positions, but I think this “poll with benefits”* will move more smoothly if we do not ascribe motives to other posters.
*“Benefits” being the opportunity to argue a bit about the facts in a way that the IMHO Mods felt were not suitable for that Forum.
Strawman. Nobody, but nobody, actually “supports” losing. Well, maybe the hardcore “bitchslap the imperialist” types like Trihs. The rest of us just want everyone to face up to reality: we don’t support losing, and we never did, but the reality is, this thing is now, and probably always was, unwinnable, if in fact we haven’t already essentially lost.
That’s exactly what we’re doing; we’re trying to preserve the national ego, or more specifically the ego of Bush and his neocon cabal. “Just a hundred more dead soldiers and we’ll turn the corner!” Fuck that. Get out now.
I think any one who bought into the idea that we were going to war to overthrow a dictator were hopelessly naive. I am old and have seen America interfere in many governments in my lifetime. The reasons offered were almost alway not true. We have propped up dictators throughout our history if we found them useful. Hell. we have overthrown governments and installed dictators.
Would America have been more or less tolerant of the Iraq war if we were told it was about getting a predictable oil supply.
The information about the lies leading up to the war was available in the internets. To some we knew we were being lied to. I wanted to throw a brick at Powell at the U.N. I wanted to bitch slap Rice every Sunday as she lied us into this fiasco. Og I hate Cheney.
Latest count ,there are about 70 dictatorships in the world. We have a lot of work to do if that is our aim. How could anyone believe these lying bastards.?
How do you define “winning” or “losing” in Iraq? Those terms would not seem to have any reference to this situation. It’s not “us vs. them.” It’s a civil war between two other “thems” with us in the middle. There is no way to “win” in that situation and it’s already impossible to avoid losing. All we can do is choose whether or not to keep adding Americans to the body count.
I didn’t care either way at the time of buildup and invasion; it was just something remote and irrelevant. At some point my best friend told me not to mention Iraq in conversation with another mutual friend, as her brother, a Marine, was about to be deployed there. The perspective’s different when someone you know runs a risk of getting maimed or killed, rather than some faceless entities. I only looked at it critically then.
Opposed it since early 2004.
No, no, and thrice no. I supported (eventually) the Afghanistan campaign as the only logical response to 9/11.
Iraq, no, I marched against it. It was a clusterfuck waiting to happen. I mean the single must utterly, utterly, ridiculously short-sighted fucking disaster that anyone with half a gram of sense could have predicted. In a world where the US is viewed askance by Muslims for various reasons, some legitimate, invading an Islamic country on false pretenses and totally fucking up the aftermath is the STUPIDEST strategic decision made since Saddam thought he could invade Kuwait with impunity.
Is it fighting terror? No, no no. Of course fucking not. It’s fanning the flames and turning otherwise apathetic Islamic individuals into militant radicals, all over the world.
Case in point: the doctor currently on trial for last week’s failed car-bombings in London and Glasgow is Iraqi, sent by an Iraqi fanatical cleric who last year announced to the British that “those that heal you shall kill you”.
Fuck’s sake.
It’s not a war; it’s an occupation. “Victory” would require a number of things to happen that we absolutely cannot control, things that only the Iraqis themselves can do. I opposed it starting in 2002, but not coherently and consistently, because part of me wanted to believe the White House and Colin Powell weren’t lying about something so important.
(I’ve always been disgusted by all the Democratic Senators who voted for the resolution authorizing Bush to use the military – they’ve tried to cover their asses ever since by claiming that they didn’t know how he’d use it. Bullshit; I knew he was going to invade, and so did they.)
No maybe about it. I want America to lose, as badly as possible. No only does America deserve it for invading in the first place, but the more painful and embarrassing the disaster is, the longer it’ll be before we try garbage like this again. My major regret is that no matter what happens, the Iraqis are the ones who will suffer the most for our evil.
The most badly we could lose would be for the Iraqi insurgents (or whatever you want to cal them) to kill every single American, including you. Is that what you want?
“Most badly possible” is by definition restricted to the possible; the Iraqis killing all Americans is not a possible outcome.
America losing is not a possible outcome, then.
America has already lost. The only question is how bad it’ll be.
We are building bases and an enormous embassy (base). They have no plans on ever leaving. At least until our oil is gone or unnecessary.The occupation is the plan. Wars are about money.
So, did you find those cites from earlier in the thread that support your claims that our military is full of evil rapist murders that therefore deserve most horrible deaths, Der Trihs ?
Cites were provided by me and others. As for murder, the Iraq war is mass murder; a soldier is participating in that mass murder by simply being there and doing his or her job. In a just world, they’d all get prison time or death. Along with the people who gave the orders.
As you elected the people responsible for this when are you going to prison or offing yourself?
I voted against them, and I can’t think of a single politician I’ve supported or approved of in my life. And they aren’t listening to me anyway, due to my lack of bribe money; ahem, campaign contributions. And, the people who run America aren’t doing much at all that I approve of, and are doing many, many things I disapprove of. So no, I didn’t elect them, and I feel no responsibility for the people in charge.
You linked to a single op-ed piece- that isn’t real evidence. TomnDebb said it best here.
I provided a report, backed up by numbers, statistics, AND official polls (a post which you ignored). How can you say that an Op-ed piece without numbers as a legitimate cite? Sadly, a poll of 20 female veterans is hardly a fair a legitimate survey.
And as for the “others”, I assume you are referring to the single link provided by Squink (me thinks they aren’t a plural entity, though I suppose I could have just missed the others jumping in on your side of the argument with evidence. If so, please point out those posts). I already replied to my reasoning as to why that may be a flawed poll.
My point still stands that if the military is such an atrocious and rape filled place for women, it’s highly unlikely you’d see reenlistment rates even in the same ball park as the men, let alone only a few percentage points lower.
If that is what this is it shouldn’t be in GD then.
A regime changing military expedition is much like a house mortgage. You buy the house, then find out it’s more expensive and more damaged than you thought. You can’t really afford it, but you don’t want to live on the street. You’re hoping to wait it out and find a buyer when the market gets better. This isn’t how knock down drag out wars are fought, this is how conflicts go down when only half the people in the home country are good for it. Here, Democracy limits a countries ability for military success, but it also limits the total damage.
And you as a member of a nation that directly caused this situation see no moral obligation to attempt to keep things calmer? It is a civil war, it is also a terrorist recruiting and training ground, it is a pawn in Middle Eastern politics, it is a place where the United States has now 25 brigades and has a small chance of assisting a ‘less bad’ form of government to rule when we leave…I believe that is how they define ‘winning’ now.
But you live within, and benefit from, the political system that you seem to despise so much. Interesting.
So you do know how to fix things, but aren’t willing to do what it takes to do so. EG. make enough money to bribe politicians to your way of thinking.
If you participate in the system then you are guilty by association for whatever the system that supports you, and you support, does. Without your, and others like you, support then the system couldn’t do all those evil things you say it does. Just by paying taxes you are supporting your government. Who is in that government is incidental.