Again, that’s NOT what I’m saying. I’m saying that with the information, one could go to their boss using that information and ASK for more money. They would be given the explanation of why there is a salary discrepancy. That explanation is either acceptable, and one would walk away and understand why that person earns more. Or it is unacceptable, and one could test the waters to see if they do, in fact, deserve more money.
Upon testing the waters one would find out whether they actually deserve more money or not when someone is either willing to pay them more money or not.
The hypothetical person is not assuming that they deserve more money, but getting another piece of information to figure out if they deserve more money; Joe’s salary doesn’t determine my salary, the free market does.
I don’t understand what you’re saying. Apologies if I’m being a bit dense.
Based on my understanding of your post, you’re saying that Jane finds out that Joe earns 15% more than her, so Jane goes to her boss and “uses that information” to ask for more money. Correct?
The way I would imagine that conversation going is “I’ve found out that Joe earns 15% more than me to do the same job as me. Will you give me a 15% raise?”
To me, that is saying that Jane believes she should earn the same as Joe because they do the same job.
I agree that it is inappropriate to ask. I occasionally realize that I have no idea how much my relatives or neighbors earn. Odd when you realize you have no idea if someone makes $75G or $175G. Or $200G or $400G.
I’m also with the government, where everyone at the same grade/step is paid the same. Everyone knows what grade and approximately what step everyone else is.
I’ve got 3 close friends, two I golf with and one I run with, with whom I freely exchange all kinds of financial info. They are in similar age/economic position as I. It is good to have a couple of people with whom you can shoot the breeze about savings, investments, purchases, mortgages, retirement planning, etc., using specific dollars and percentages instead of just speaking in generalities. And we’ve known each other long enough that jealousy isn’t an issue - to the contrary - we all want each other to do as well as possible. Heck, our overriding interest is simply that we remain friends to run and golf together! Money is just another of the many things we talk about while on the course or running paths. And I think that knowing that we trust each other with our personal financial information, and value each other’s input on such matters, makes us closer.
At my last job (with a major IT services provider) I had been a couple of years without a pay rise (and had only been given a small rise in four years) we had a “Don’t Ask, don’t tell” clause in our contracts.
What we could do was request information on how our salary compared with others of the same grade in the company, and where we fit within the bands (top or bottom quarter, etc) . We could then seek a justification for our place within the band.
All that did was highlight the fact that the banding did not reflect market rates, that managers had no incentive to move people up to a new band, and that even if you did move up a band (or take on new responsibility) you would not get any additional pay.
It doesn’t necessarily work that way for salaried employees.
For example, when I was hired for a salaried position during the recession, it was for far, far less than what is typical for the position. However, any job in that industry was hard to come by during that time and I was glad to be working at all. Five years later, right-out-of-school kid with no experience, was hired for the same position and his starting salary exceeded mine (even though I got to boss him around as his senior). The market has drastically changed and salaries had become much more competitive. Then I left for the same job at another company that offered me 30% more.
Sometimes salaries are negotiable in which case you and your co-worker, doing the smae job, for the same amount of time, can be quite different. You get very messy office politics when the one earning less figures that out.
That is one piece of information that Jane can use to convince herself and her boss that she deserves a raise. She is either right and she is underpaid, and her boss (or the boss of another company) will give her a raise. Or she is wrong, and there is a good reason that Joe is paid more, and no one will give her more money.
Whether she *actually * deserves a raise or not is determined by the free market. Whether she gets the raise is the only piece of information that should convince Jane that she deserves more money.
There’s a reason for sites like salary.com. If you know the range of appropriate salaries, then you have more of a bargaining position. The first rule of salary negotiation is never be the first one to throw out a number. Get them to tell you the range of salaries first.
For me it depends on who is asking. I am under confidentiality not to discuss what I am making now, but there is a range and I am happy to know I am in the mid-top level of that range.
At any other job I would usually provide a vague answer, depending on who is asking and why. My SO and I know exactly what each other makes.
When thinking about it, most of the people who asked me I already knew what they made. My parents, primarily due to FAFSA, and my aunt had no problem saying (without asking) what they made.
The reason I find it so taboo to talk about is that it leads to pissing contests. It’s like when people will take a standardized test and then lie about their score to make others think they are smarter. I just don’t know if it does anyone any good. Howver, I can understand wanting to know your coworkers to find out if you are being ajustly compensated.
Far as I’m concerned that’s the only moral position. Assuming they truly ARE doing the same job. Same job title, but different job responsibilities is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
But the exact same job? Yes, you should be getting paid the same ( base salary or wages, again nothing theoretically wrong with different bonuses for different levels of performance ). Anything else is fucked up IMHO.
I have a couple of friends that I discuss my salary with. My wife certainly knows. My mother also knows, as she’s the one that processes my taxes. I’m happy to have her know I’m doing “just fine.”
I’d not discuss it with my co-workers though, as I don’t feel that’s appropriate… unless I was going for a job with a company at which one of my friends worked, then it’d be research.
I’m not 100% sure at this stage how much this year’s income is going to be (self-employed, but business has boomed). Would I go telling people? No – mainly 'cause it’s both private, and also extremely crass to go saying, “Oh. I get such-and-such!” when those around you may be on the bones of their you-know-what and scraping for their last copper.
The Indianapolis Star website posted a searchable database of all Indiana state employees, their title, date of hire, and salary this last summer. It included all university faculty and staff as well. Their stated purpose was to provide transparency, so that the citizens could see if there were any nepotism effects on salary, what policital appointees are making, etc. I don’t know if that was the actual outcome, but I do know morale in my state agency office took a big hit for a while. “Why am I working my butt off when that guy (half of whose job I’m doing) makes $20,000 more a year than I do?”
Personally, I don’t care if people ask what I make - I’ve only ever worked for government, so it’s never been a particular issue for me. However, I’d rather not have it posted as a searchable database on the internet.
Something that my fiance learned the hard way unfortunately. We were hanging out with some friends crassly discussing jobs and salaries. Friend A was in research and Friend B was in hospitality, my fiance is in IT. He was talking about someone who left the company for greener pastures and said “well you can understand why he left. You don’t want to get to 26 and still be earning under 100k”. Silence. You can be sure he never did *that * again.
A friend of mine is an articles clerk or whatever you call lawyers who are in their first year. Apparently what the top firms pay their junior lawyers is common knowledge, and although my friend is at the most prestigious firm the lawyers there were paid less than the 2nd and 3rd most prestigious ones. From what I understand they used this information to negotiate a raise to match (and possibly beat) the other firms - a raise that they got because the company knew that they’d been screwing them. They got the best lawyers from the best schools, and worked them twice as hard at a lower salary, and if the lawyers hadn’t been comparing they would never have known.
Friend A was in research and Friend B was in hospitality, my fiance is in IT. He was talking about someone who left the company for greener pastures and said “well you can understand why he left. You don’t want to get to 26 and still be earning under 100k”. Silence. You can be sure he never did *that * again.