Do you think Obama counts as a black president?

[bldysabba]

@Blackberry

Are Sasha and Malia possibly not black either? After all, they’re the only black people in history to grow up like they are.

I apologise if the framing of my question makes it seem like I’m questioning if he’s black. He is, undoubtedly, black. But that is only because, somewhat tautologically, half his genes happen to come from a black Kenyan man. His upbringing was in a white family, his experiences were probably far removed from those many black children in the mainland US faced, the immediate culture was unlikely to have elements that were similar to black culture(s) in the mainland US because of the much smaller proportion of blacks in Hawaii. This paper,

We can say categorically that racial segregation has never been the practice of the public schools of Hawaii.

along with his own statements suggest that he probably didn’t face similar negative experiences while growing up as many blacks undoubtedly do.

My question is this - While Obama is no doubt black, do you think that his electability as president also has to do with the fact that his upbringing is much closer to white than black, and not just that America is now ready to elect a black president?

[Scumpup]

He’ll do until President Flav takes office.

[jackdavinci]

He’s blacker than any previous president. That’s all that matters.

[Blackberry]

@bldysabba

My question is this - While Obama is no doubt black, do you think that his electability as president also has to do with the fact that his upbringing is much closer to white than black, and not just that America is now ready to elect a black president?

That was definitely a factor. But as **Nzinga **said, the people we elect as president do not tend to have typical backgrounds anyway. And there are a lot of factors in play. Another major one, IMO, was that GWB fucked up so bad. The US was just *barely *ready to elect a black president. A lot of factors all fell into place and it worked out. Had we just had a halfway decent Republican administration, and a dark-skinned black Democratic candidate with a voice that clearly sounded black (but otherwise had identical platforms as Obama)…well, sad to say, I don’t think he would have been elected. But that’s politics, it’s all a big game with a lot of strategy and a lot of wild cards.

[Nzinga_Seated]

I don’t know, bldysabba. Do you really think most Americans took into account the nuances of Obama’s background?

This idea that they are at the voting booth, taking into account the fact that Hawaiian public schools didn’t racially segregate is really giving Americans the benefit of the doubt in terms of deep thinking and critical analysis.

So, yes, I think if another black man made a play for office, and he looked black, self identified as black and was born in America and raised here, being black, then yeah, he would have as good a chance as any black man that was raised by white parents, or in Hawaii, or any other such random and specific details.

But, let’s say it happened. Let’s say a man was Black, descended from slaves which were shipped from West Africa, and he was voted president.

You would hear people say, “Well, President Blackman is lightskinned. He isn’t really black because his skintone is so light that he never felt the real hardship of the field negro”

Or, “Well, President Blackman married a white woman…he’s not really black. He goes to a white church, too. He has embraced white culture.”

Or, “Well President Blackman identifies as a cablanasian”.

Or, “Well, President Blackman isn’t really black. His mother is only a quarter black, and his father was a heart surgeon. That certainly isn’t the case for most black Americans”

It just never ends. It is one of those things that some people have to learn to accept. The president is black, it *happened *and it could happen again. People have to accept it…we can’t wish it away. It has happened. A black man is the president of the United States of America.

ETA: Blackberry, I would disagree with you about ‘sounding Black’. Obama definitely has a ‘black voice’. He has that black man’s timbre. In my opinion, anyway. If I never met him, but heard him on the phone, I would KNOW he is black.

[WhyNot]

@bldysabba

My question is this - While Obama is no doubt black, do you think that his electability as president also has to do with the fact that his upbringing is much closer to white than black, and not just that America is now ready to elect a black president?

No. I think 90% of the people that voted for him had no idea that “his upbringing is much closer to white than black,” because Americans, and I say this with all due love and respect, are stupid uninformed morons.`

Most people I speak to today think he was born in, raised in and singlehandedly transformed Chicago, IL into a racial paradise before riding into Washington DC on a white horse to save us from ourselves.

And I *like *the guy, don’t get me wrong. I voted for him. Twice.

Obama is black because he’s perceived as black. Period, end of story. When another black President is elected, that guy will be known as the second black President, not the first black president. Obama is the first black President of The United States of America. Why? Because we say so.

[Blackberry]

@Nzinga_Seated

ETA: Blackberry, I would disagree with you about ‘sounding Black’. Obama definitely has a ‘black voice’. He has that black man’s timbre. In my opinion, anyway. If I never met him, but heard him on the phone, I would KNOW he is black.

Interesting. I think I would have no idea either way. But see, that’s probably true of a lot of white people. For black people to think his voice clearly sounds black isn’t really relevant to that point, you know? You guys aren’t the ones who would discriminate based on that.

[WhyNot]

Obama code switches with ease. He can sound black or white at will, which probably serves him well in politics.

When he’s speaking informally, or joking during a speech, I would identify him as black with a blindfold on. Not so sure I would during his serious speeches.

[bldysabba]

@Nzinga_Seated

I don’t know, bldysabba. Do you really think most Americans took into account the nuances of Obama’s background?

Nuances, no. Those I’m bringing up only to back up my assertion that I think he’s close to being culturally white, or at least far away from being culturally black.
But the fact that he was brought up by and got most of his values from a white family/grandmother? (I think he said this many times in his first campaign? Or maybe it was only because she passed away around then?)

But you guys are right, he does qualify and self identify as black, so it doesn’t much matter what reasons the electorate had for finding him electable. The fact is, he is black and he is the first black president. I was wondering if many Americans think of this the way I see it, that he was made more electable because he’s practically white (IMHO)

[bldysabba]

@WhyNot

Obama code switches with ease. He can sound black or white at will, which probably serves him well in politics.

When he’s speaking informally, or joking during a speech, I would identify him as black with a blindfold on. Not so sure I would during his serious speeches.

Can you link to some of these instances of him ‘sounding black’? I’ve heard some of his speeches where he cracks jokes. The white house press dinners or something they’re called ? I didn’t think he switched codes. Sounded like he always does.

[Blackberry]

@bldysabba

Nuances, no. Those I’m bringing up only to back up my assertion that I think he’s close to being culturally white, or at least far away from being culturally black.
But the fact that he was brought up by and got most of his values from a white family/grandmother? (I think he said this many times in his first campaign? Or maybe it was only because she passed away around then?)

But you guys are right, he does qualify and self identify as black, so it doesn’t much matter what reasons the electorate had for finding him electable. The fact is, he is black and he is the first black president. I was wondering if many Americans think of this the way I see it, that he was made more electable because he’s practically white (IMHO)

I don’t think he’s “practically white” at all, but yes, as I said, I think the fact that he seems less threatening to some white people than some black men do, is definitely a factor. But it’s politics and I’m sure equally-trivial factors come into play in every country’s politics. Good looks (a certain *type *of good looks) matter a lot, a pleasant speak voice matters, etc. Obama’s looks and mannerisms not alarming white people as much as some black men do is just one thing out of many things. His name alone probably cancels out a lot of the favor he might get for being what you consider “practically white”.

[Nzinga_Seated]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. He sounds black all the time to me. Sometimes he uses what I call a black person’s ‘formal style’, and when he’s not giving a speech or something, he sounds like what I call black folks ‘homestyle’ voice. Both sound black to me. When black folks talk about being ‘bilingual’ that’s usually what we mean…‘proper’ vs. ‘casual’. Not ‘white voice’ vs. 'black voice.

Curious: Does Oprah sound white to you all? Corey Booker? James Earl Jones? Morgan Freeman?

If white people hear it differently, then I guess that’s what really matters in this discussion about whether or not whites would vote for him.

[WhyNot]

@bldysabba

Can you link to some of these instances of him ‘sounding black’? I’ve heard some of his speeches where he cracks jokes. The white house press dinners or something they’re called ? I didn’t think he switched codes. Sounded like he always does.

Sure. The one that sticks out in my mind the best is the “Romnesia” speech. Not every word, but many phrases, sound “black”. Lots of dropped "ing"s, the “sing-song” structure. “Man” as an interjection, “puhcent” instead of “percent”, “prolly” instead of “probably”. It’s all around more mushy mouthed than his most formal serious speeches, and a speech that I’d peg as “black” from the audio alone.

He sounds even more “black” when speaking to black audiences, as he himself acknowledges.

Do you try to talk in the same way to a black audience as a white audience?

I think that the themes are consistent. It think that there’s a certain black idiom that it’s hard not to slip into when you’re talking to a black audience because of the audience response. It’s the classic call and response. Anybody who’s spent time in a black church knows what I mean. And so you get a little looser; it becomes a little more like jazz and a little less like a set score.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7630250

[Blackberry]

@Nzinga_Seated

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. He sounds black all the time to me. Sometimes he uses what I call a black person’s ‘formal style’, and when he’s not giving a speech or something, he sounds like what I call black folks ‘homestyle’ voice. Both sound black to me. When black folks talk about being ‘bilingual’ that’s usually what we mean…‘proper’ vs. ‘casual’. Not ‘white voice’ vs. 'black voice.

Curious: Does Oprah sound white to you all? Corey Booker? James Earl Jones? Morgan Freeman?

If white people hear it differently, then I guess that’s what really matters in this discussion about whether or not whites would vote for him.

I don’t know who Corey Booker is, but the rest of them sound black to me. Obama, as I said, I wouldn’t know. I’m trying to imagine if he called me at work and then came in. I think I’d be mildly curious what race he was. And when I saw him I’d just think “oh, okay”.

[Odesio]

Shame on you, Nzinga, Seated! Stop picking on President Blackman! :mad:

@Nzinga_Seated

You would hear people say, “Well, President Blackman is lightskinned. He isn’t really black because his skintone is so light that he never felt the real hardship of the field negro”

Or, “Well, President Blackman married a white woman…he’s not really black. He goes to a white church, too. He has embraced white culture.”

Or, “Well President Blackman identifies as a cablanasian”.

Or, “Well, President Blackman isn’t really black. His mother is only a quarter black, and his father was a heart surgeon. That certainly isn’t the case for most black Americans”

[Nzinga_Seated]

@WhyNot

Sure. The one that sticks out in my mind the best is the “Romnesia” speech. Not every word, but many phrases, sound “black”. Lots of dropped "ing"s, the “sing-song” structure. “Man” as an interjection, “puhcent” instead of “percent”, “prolly” instead of “probably”. It’s all around more mushy mouthed than his most formal serious speeches, and a speech that I’d peg as “black” from the audio alone.

He sounds even more “black” when speaking to black audiences, as he himself acknowledges.

Obama to Attend Selma March Anniversary : NPR

No. That’s not what he said. He said he changes his style for black audiences, and allows black idioms to come through, loosens up, jazz it up, sure. That is not the same as saying you talk ‘black’ for black audiences. There is a difference.

I know I can use my black slang and black English with my friends, but when I have to cut those things out, I’m not speaking ‘white’ or ‘non black’. I am speaking formally or professionally. The same way that my white co-workers who say “Gonna, gotta, you betcha” or whatever may have to switch to “going to, got to, yes ma’am” when certain clients are on the phone.

When I get home and relax and allow black slang to enter my speech, I’m not all of a sudden 'speaking black".

If I had certain clients on my phone, where I smelled real money, my English became absolutely flawless, without so much as a dropped g. That doesn’t mean I sound white.

[QUOTE=Odesia]
Shame on you, Nzinga, Seated! Stop picking on President Blackman!
[/QUOTE]

Well, President Blackman needs to stop uncle tommin and black it up!

[WhyNot]

@Nzinga_Seated

Curious: Does Oprah sound white to you all? Corey Booker? James Earl Jones? Morgan Freeman?

I’m not familiar with Corey Booker’s voice, so I found this video and listened to it. I would have thought from the audio that the speaker was white, yes.

Oprah, James Earl Jones and Morgan Freeman I know too well, and they have such distinctive voices. They sound like Oprah, James Earl Jones and Morgan Freeman. They have cultured, affluent black dialects (which I think is what you mean by “they don’t sound white”) but they still sound black to me.

[Nzinga_Seated]

What makes black people sound black to me isn’t the dialect. We can ALL switch that up at will. It’s the timbre.

Look, I have some concerns with your posts, but I have to get to it later. I haven’t slept at all and I have an appt. in an hour. I’ll post back this afternoon.

[WhyNot]

@Nzinga_Seated

What makes black people sound black to me isn’t the dialect. We can ALL switch that up at will. It’s the timbre.

I would definitely like to know more about that. It might help me understand why so many of my (black) patients keep asking me if I’m sure I don’t have “black in me” (meaning ancestors) because of how I talk. One even told me last week (when I said that I pick up speech mannerisms very easily and tend to when I’ve had a long day with a lot of black people,) that it wasn’t my word choice or how the words sounded, it was the sound of my voice itself. Which I don’t grok at all. But it sounds like maybe she was talking about what you’re talking about.

What makes black people sound black to me is a variety of dialects which are mostly spoken by black people, including “professional” speech like Oprah’s. Maybe dialect is too technical a word, but most professional black women I hear sound much like each other, and similar to but not identical to professional white women I hear.

[Clothahump]

No, because skin color is meaningless unless you’re giving a physical description.

He’s just incompetent. Color has absolutely nothing to do with that.