Do you think Obama counts as a black president?

[Nzinga_Seated]

@The_Second_Stone

Obama looks a lot like Stanley Dunham, his maternal grandfather. BARACK OBAMA ON HAWAII BEACH WITH GRANDFATHER | BARACK OBAMA… | Flickr

Hmm. Ok. I will see your random Obama pic and I will raise you a random Obama video.

[Jragon]

@Blackberry

Of course he’s black, what else would he be? White?

A one-horned one-eyed flying purple people eater.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@astorian

SUPPOSE that Barry Goldwater had been elected President in 1964 (yeah, like THAT was ever going to happen!). Would American Jews have exclaimed happily, “Antisemitism is over! America elected a Jewish President?”

Hardly! After all, despite his ancestry, Goldwater was a right-wing Protestant who wasn’t running as a Jew. Most Jewish Americans in 1964 would have sighed and said, “He isn’t one of us and his election doesn’t prove anything particularly good about American attitudes toward Jews.”

Two things:

1. If Obama was going around repeatedly emphasizing that he wasn’t black, that would be a radically different situation. He’s not.

2. No-one is saying that racism is over–or even that racism against African-Americans is over. It’s not.

[Drunky_Smurf]

Of course he’s not black. He’s a muslim and is therefore Iranian. So he’s whatever the hell this color is.

http://muftah.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/iranian-people-sanctions.jpg

[Apollyon]

@Nzinga_Seated

Curious: Does Oprah sound white to you all? Corey Booker? James Earl Jones? Morgan Freeman?

Well, yeah… one does. The one that sounds like Darth Vader.

[John_Mace]

@Omega_Glory

Agreed. Obama sounds black all the time to me, too.

I’m always surprised when people say Obama looks too light skinned to be black to them. He’s several shades darker than most biracial people I know, and nobody ever seems to be confused when they identify as black.

It shouldn’t be surprising that Obama is darker than most biracial people you know. Obama is very unusual in the US, being a biracial person who is actually 50/50 European/African. Most biracial (black/white) people are 50/50 European/African-American which means they are more likely 70/30 European/African. Most blacks in the US, unlike Obama Sr., have a significant amount of recent European ancestry.

Tiger woods, who is often considered black, probably has maybe 25% African ancestry. If you forget about his color and just look at him, he really looks more East Asian than anything else, which is what he is, more than anything else.

[Omega_Glory]

@John_Mace

It shouldn’t be surprising that Obama is darker than most biracial people you know.

Just to clarify, this doesn’t surprise me at all.

[Enola_Gay]

@bldysabba

I apologise if the framing of my question makes it seem like I’m questioning if he’s black. He is, undoubtedly, black. But that is only because, somewhat tautologically, half his genes happen to come from a black Kenyan man. His upbringing was in a white family, his experiences were probably far removed from those many black children in the mainland US faced, the immediate culture was unlikely to have elements that were similar to black culture(s) in the mainland US because of the much smaller proportion of blacks in Hawaii. This paper,

along with his own statements suggest that he probably didn’t face similar negative experiences while growing up as many blacks undoubtedly do.

My question is this - While Obama is no doubt black, do you think that his electability as president also has to do with the fact that his upbringing is much closer to white than black, and not just that America is now ready to elect a black president?

I think Obama was elected because, in addition to being a highly qualified leader, he has that special indescribable something that makes people relate to him, regardless of race or upbringing. He and his family are also very physically attractive and right or wrong, that seems to matter to Americans.

Oprah Winfrey was not brought up in “the white culture” and she also has that intangible quality that makes her very relatable to all sorts of people, regardless of race, background, etc.

[Blackberry]

@Enola_Gay

He and his family are also very physically attractive and right or wrong, that seems to matter to Americans.

I think it’s kind of funny you said “right or wrong”, like it may be right to prefer attractive people for reasons other than sexual attraction. But I don’t think they’re unusually attractive anyway. I think they look and act classy, and I like them, but they look like a nice family, not a family of models or anything.

[gaffa]

@Jragon

AAVE is a linguistics label, and in fact refers to a sociolect. Sociolects are different from dialects in that which sociolect you’re using depends on context. Most people have different sociolects, for instance, I talk much differently with my friends than I do with my professors than I do with my family. Those are all examples of different sociolects. So when I “cut back on the informal speech in a formal setting” it is, in fact, doing the EXACT same thing AAVE speakers do in a formal setting. We both switch from our respective colloquial sociolects to Standard American Academic English. AAVE just happens to be a sociolect that has a more well known label (I think it has rather unique properties and is considered more noticeable than most sociolects as well, but I’m not 100% sure on that). Though I won’t deny that most people who know the term probably don’t know that they do the same thing and think it’s just a way to denote “black people speak”.

I have to say that of all the terms I have learned here on the Dope, sociolect is the one that has proven most useful. It made me realize that I have one, a “computer geek” sociolect, in addition to my Midwestern accent. When I learned the term, it made any number of things much clearer - like why some gay men adopt a particular set of vocal mannerisms. I realized my own “geeky” speech was similar, a sociolect adopted from my peer group.

[Little_Plastic_Ninja]

@Jragon

AAVE is a linguistics label, and in fact refers to a sociolect. Sociolects are different from dialects in that which sociolect you’re using depends on context. Most people have different sociolects, for instance, I talk much differently with my friends than I do with my professors than I do with my family. Those are all examples of different sociolects. So when I “cut back on the informal speech in a formal setting” it is, in fact, doing the EXACT same thing AAVE speakers do in a formal setting. We both switch from our respective colloquial sociolects to Standard American Academic English. AAVE just happens to be a sociolect that has a more well known label (I think it has rather unique properties and is considered more noticeable than most sociolects as well, but I’m not 100% sure on that). Though I won’t deny that most people who know the term probably don’t know that they do the same thing and think it’s just a way to denote “black people speak”.

Per my old linguistics professor, a specialist in creoles, AAVE shares many characteristics with other creoles of West African languages and English. Or indeed, most other languages and English. The grammar is maintained but the vocabulary shifts to the ‘new’ language.

But this is half-remembered linguistic theory from one course specializing in English dialects.

[Zsofia]

See, Whitey Zsofia can’t say “Ebonics” because that’s an icky term, and I can’t say “talk black” because people will think I’m racist, and I can’t say “AAVE” because by law I have to say somewhere in the same paragraph “I read in the Atlantic/New York Times/Harper’s that…” so I’m kind of out of options.

[John_Mace]

@Little_Plastic_Ninja

Per my old linguistics professor, a specialist in creoles, AAVE shares many characteristics with other creoles of West African languages and English. Or indeed, most other languages and English. The grammar is maintained but the vocabulary shifts to the ‘new’ language.

But this is half-remembered linguistic theory from one course specializing in English dialects.

I doubt that a knowledgeable linguist would call AAVE a “creole”. That has a specific meaning in linguistics, and I don’t see how AAVE could qualify.

[Sattua]

@Zsofia

See, Whitey Zsofia can’t say “Ebonics” because that’s an icky term, and I can’t say “talk black” because people will think I’m racist, and I can’t say “AAVE” because by law I have to say somewhere in the same paragraph “I read in the Atlantic/New York Times/Harper’s that…” so I’m kind of out of options.

The takeaway lesson is that it’s better to not get involved in discussions about minority dialects, apparently.

[Zsofia]

Yeah, I read that in the New Yorker.

[Inner_Stickler]

@Zsofia

See, Whitey Zsofia can’t say “Ebonics” because that’s an icky term, and I can’t say “talk black” because people will think I’m racist, and I can’t say “AAVE” because by law I have to say somewhere in the same paragraph “I read in the Atlantic/New York Times/Harper’s that…” so I’m kind of out of options.

Talking black =/= AAVE. Well, it can but it’s quite clear in this thread that when people say talking black, they mean using a sub-dialect of Standard American English that is heavy on a class of idioms, slang, and pronunciations that is generally considered ‘black’. AAVE is an extremely specific description of a variant of english with its own rules of grammar. AAVE is not dropping the g off the ends of words. It is not saying puhcent or prolly instead of percent or probably.

And no one sits down and calculates, when I’m with this person, I shall use these particular expressions but should someone of this socioeconomic background arrive, I shall switch to this class any more than an outfielder performs mental trigonometry to catch a baseball.

[Acsenray]

@Apollyon

Well, yeah… one does. The one that sounds like Darth Vader.

That’s what I was thinking.

[Zsofia]

@Inner_Stickler

Talking black =/= AAVE. Well, it can but it’s quite clear in this thread that when people say talking black, they mean using a sub-dialect of Standard American English that is heavy on a class of idioms, slang, and pronunciations that is generally considered ‘black’. AAVE is an extremely specific description of a variant of english with its own rules of grammar. AAVE is not dropping the g off the ends of words. It is not saying puhcent or prolly instead of percent or probably.

And no one sits down and calculates, when I’m with this person, I shall use these particular expressions but should someone of this socioeconomic background arrive, I shall switch to this class any more than an outfielder performs mental trigonometry to catch a baseball.

Eh, when I say somebody is “talking black” I do mean they say “axe” instead of “ask” or that really weird thing for the letter “r” but I also mean they say “I be working at the Pizza Hut” or “I been working at the Pizza Hut” or omit “is” or “are” or don’t invert the word order for a question, like “Why you ain’t home?” - grammatical features, not slang or pronunciations.

[Inner_Stickler]

But your latter examples are not examples of the sort of linguistic traits Obama shows when he speaks to primarily black audiences or in one-on-one interactions with other black people so if they are what you are thinking of when you describe ‘talking black’ you shouldn’t be applying that label to Obama’s speech patterns.

[MeanOldLady]

Oh god. The white people are discussing what “talking black” means. I’m out.

Btw, Zinga, love that random Obama video. The ball portion was by far the best part, and felt like watching two guys I know hang out. I think it’s because he was talking black.