Saying that children who are murdered for throwing stones do not deserve sympathy is the same as condoning killing them, is it not?
One is a statement of fact. One is an emotion/opinion. That’s one difference right there, maybe you should look and think a little harder before responding next time?
- No, it isn’t.
- Not expecting sympathy and not getting it anyway are different things as well.
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Maybe. Maybe not. I’ve also always wondered about the average Joe being considered a hero just because he was killed (as opposed to say the fire fighters and police officers who ran into the building). But nonetheless, apparently it is valid to make distinctions based on the circumstances of death. No is questioning the fact that this other murder victim was left out of all the rememberences.
Well, then, I suppose that if I disappear in the next attack, you’ll just chalk it up to “Well, Zev lived in New York and so that’s his fault…”
Zev Steinhardt
O.K., fair enough Zev. I just fear that while you may not intend to be taking sides, it sort of appears that way, and I think you’re opening a Pandora’s box with this thread.
I think I’ll leave before it gets really ugly in here…
Obviously not. If I am against the death penalty, for example, I may fail to condone a person’s death and yet simultaneously feel no sympathy for it. “Condoning” means overlooking or disregarding. While it is hard to condone something and still have sympathy for it, it is not hard to do fail to do either.
No it’s not. I don’t condone bears in zoos killing people. And if a person crawls into the exhibit, all efforts (including killing the bear) should be taken to try to save him and prevent him from being killed. But if he does die, don’t expect me to express too much horror at his plight.
Zev Steinhardt
When you find it normal that “death can be a consequence” when a child throws a stone to a soldier (let be a tank) you are over the edge in my opinion.
Again: you try to keep your children inside when
- you live in one room with the whole family
- your country is occupied and the children hear and see nothing else then this situation, the talks about it, the murders and whatever all day long
- those same children have to pass those soldiers when they go to school or come back.
- those same children have learned by those circulstances to find it " sport" to throw stones at those enemies.
Those soldiers killing those children are cold blooded child murderers. Or do you think a stone or some stones thrown by some children is “threatening the life” of that soldier who is armed from top to toe. Don’t let me laugh. They shoot at those kids from behind walls and other abushes. They know where they are going to show up. They also fire at the ambulances who come to pick up the wounded or dead children. And hit them Killing medics.
Just like the doctor and his daughter were killed by terrorists, are those kids and the medics who come to help them killed by terrorists. Only those ones are dressed and armed as soldiers and follow the orders of their government.
Salaam. A.
Aldebaran, let me say this loud and clear, okay?
The deaths of those children are tragic. I do not condone them. I have never once said that I did.
Although I do not think it is “over the edge” to state that death is an expected consequence of throwing stones at solidiers. Note that in this specific sentence, I do not state whether or not I agree with it, I’m stating that it is a reality of this world, like it or not.
Although why we’re arguing about this in a thread about something else entirely, I’m not sure. Some people here seem to think that anyone expressing condolences for Dr. Applebaum and his daughter necessarily implies some sort of disdain for Palestinian children, or some joy in their deaths. It isn’t true. So can we move on now?
zev - if you truly cannot distinguish between the political situations and security issues in NY as opposed to Israel …
Like I said before, I personally have extremely little sympathy for either the Palestinians or the Israelis. So I personally am not significantly moved when I see that they have killed more of each other just about every day.
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Why are you assuming that all soldiers are in tanks. I would venture that the vast majority are not in tanks.
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so the only “legitimate” thing to do outside is to throw stones at soldiers? No one is saying that they have to stay indoors all day. Let them play a ball game. Start a civic group. Hell, let them take up knitting for all I care. But don’t tell me that they have to get out and the only thing they have to do is throw stones. :rolleyes"
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Yes, a stone can kill and it can be a life-threatening situation.
And believe me, I don’t want to make you laugh.
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And they lay candy outside so that the kids will go to the ambush sites too, right? :rolleyes:
Zev Steinhardt
LaurAnge. I believe the “they aren’t” is in response to: “How are the deaths of the WTC victims any more significant than the death of this other victim?”
BLOWERO –
Again, this is faulty logic.
Commenting on the tragedy of one event is not implicitly commenting on the tragedy – or lack of tragedy – of any other event.
If I comment on the tragedy of 3000 people dying in the events of 9/11, I am not commenting on the relative tragedy value of those events in comparison to, say, Afghanistan or Iraq or Rwanda or Chechnya or Hiroshima. If I point to one thing, I am not dismissing the entire universe of other things I am not currently pointing to, just as if I say I like peas, I am not implicitly saying I don’t like carrots or broccoli, or even think peas are intrinsically better than carrots or broccoli.
A lot of you are reading a lot of stuff into ZEV’s post that he certainly never said. He basically said, this is tragic. Now, you might disagree and say that’s his opinion, but you can hardly accuse him of saying that anything else was not tragic. And I think he has the right to comment on the things which strike him as important, without feeling obliged to mention every flipping thing the lot of you think are important.
And I can’t honestly say that I don’t see your POV. It is unfortunate that people on both sides are dying. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Zev Steinhardt
Thank you Jodi for cutting right to the heart of the matter. I certainly didn’t mean to start another Israel vs. Palestine thread… 
Zev Steinhardt
The point is most of these civilian deaths occur when there is no danger to the lifes of soldiers.
Amnesty:
HRW:
I certainly didn’t mean to hijack this thread but I take exception to the playing down of war crimes.
This I find outrageous. If I raise my children to believe – or allow them to believe – it is “sport” to throw rocks at armed men and/or tanks, then I am just as much to blame for their deaths as the men who eventually kill them.
I certainly don’t condone these deaths, or indeed do anything other than deplore them, and I certainly am not so foolish as to engage in a debate about the relative value of the lives of Palestinian children versus Israeli adults – hint, hint, ZEV! – but to act like it’s in any way reasonable for parents to allow their children to put themselves in actual obvious danger is IMO screamingly irresponsible.
And I would also admit, as an aside, that I tend to agree with DINSDALE. I see little evidence that either side really wants peace. Mostly they appear to want to kill each other as regularly and brutally as possible. My sympathy and interest is consequently eroding rapidly.
Zev,
Don’t you understand what I’m trying to bring across or don’t you want to understand it?
May I ask you again: Were you ever in the occupied territories to see how things are overthere.
No you were not, because otherwise you would understand what I say.
And I didn’t say “all those soldiers are in tanks”. Don’t try to twist my words. Other on this message board do that already enough and I am getting extremely tired of that tactic.
And if you don’t mind: don’t try to make a joke out of cold blooded childmurder with remarks like “they lay out candys…”
I said: those soldiers know extremely well where those kids are going to show up.
I heard one soldier say: Oh it has been calm today… But they always come here after school.
And when then finally a stone came flying over the wall he smiled , turned around, laid his rifle on top of that low wall, overlooked the open space behind it and waited until a kid came out of the shelter of a street on the other side of that open space, picked up a stone and threw it. The soldier smiled and fired at the child.
That day two children got severely wunded and an other hat shot ounds in his right leg. The ambulance that came to pick them up was blown into pieces. Burning and all it still transported the children. That same week one of the doctors got killed. Yet those people keep risking their lives daily.
That is reality, not your fantasy about “they lay out candy” and not your comparison with bears and whatever.
Salaam. A
Jody, Why don’t you go live overthere in one room with your whole family, become Palestinian living in the most extreme poverty and try to keep all that influence that is storming at them day and night out of their life?
They are not “raised” to find it a sport for God’s sake. They see others doing it and they imitate it.
I’m out of here.
Salaam. A
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As a matter of fact, I was there.
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No, but you implied that that was the normal situation.
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No, I was making a joke out of your outlandish statements. I would never joke about the deaths of children.
In any event, I’m going to take Jodi’s sage advice. As I said earlier, I didn’t want to start an Israel/Palestine thread. I have never started one in the past because I know what quagmires they become. I simply hoped I could comment on this case as I felt it had a real “human-interest” angle considering the sad ironies involved. I didn’t mean to get deeper than that into the whole Israel/Palestine conflict.
Zev Steinhardt