By the way: They have no airco in their one room houses. Or do you think they have… So that the children all packup up in that little house can have the luxury of playing inside while it so wonderfully hot outside.
Do you see your children playing all together all days of their lives in one room where you can almost bake an egg on the floor, also day and night?
**
Still doesn’t justify throwing rocks at soldiers. Let 'em go play baseball.
Still doesn’t justify throwing rocks at soldiers. Is that going to get them air conditioning?
In any event, I thought you said you were out of here?
Zev Steinhardt
Zev,
OK, you have made a case that the deaths of the people you talk about in your OP was tragical.
So what is your further intent with that OP.
Salaam. A
Baseball?
And you say you where “there”?
Oh God. I don’t believe what I read here. This is just incredible.
I’m out of this topic.
Does there have to be a further intent? 
Zev Steinhardt
Oh overlooked something that needs to be set straight here:
So sorry, but they have every right to throw no matter what at an occupation force. Those soldiers have no right at all to be there. Don’t twist the truth.
Salaam. A
**
Yes, I’ve been there. And it doesn’t have to be baseball, for heaven’s sake. But I find you’re telling me that Palestinian youth have nothing to do with their lives other than throw rocks at Israeli soldiers to be incredible.
So you’ve said before…
Zev Steinhardt
If there is no further intent then just bringing this case up, then what is the debate. We can only say: how tragic. Everyone can say that. But that is about it, no?
So be it. If I wanted a debate, I would have put this in GD.
And yet you’re back again…
Zev Steinhardt
Aldebaran
Newbie here. Not Israeli, nor Palestinian.
No offence, but where and when did you hear that?
I saw children throwing Molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers [sans tank]…
I’m very sorry about the Doctor and his daughter.
Sorry, but the death of innocent people is tragic, period, I don’t give a fuck if she’s three years dviorced, or if she’s getting married tomorrorw. And i don’t give a fuck whether he’s a doctor or a janitor. It’s all damned awful.
No, it’s your analogy that’s faulty.
Zev’s statement was not the equivalent of commenting on the tragedy of 9/11, and ignoring the events of Afghnisatan, etc., etc.
It was the equivalent of commenting on the deaths of one or two WTC victims while ignoring all the others, just because those two victims happen to be a doctor, and a bride.
I can understand seeing one death as more tragic than another if you happen to know the person in question, or his or her family and friends. People obviously react more strongly when they are personally involved. But to pick two essentially random people out of a group of victims, and single them out because of their occupation or their upcoming nuptials is, in my opinion, silly and irrelevant.
No mhendo I DO think that the death of a bride on her wedding day is particularly tragic (perhaps becasue I attended a wedding a couplde of days ago myself), as subjective as that may be.
:smack:
Afghnisatan??? Where the fuck is Afghnisatan???
Think what you like.
I’d be interested to hear the reactions of the relatives of the other dead people to your hierarchy of tragedy.
But when an Israeli soldier or settler is illed whilst taking part in the occupation I find it very hard to feel sympathy (well perhaps I do feel some sympathy for the soldiers as many of them are not there by choice and I know a couple of people who are currently serving there time as reservists in the IDF), but I certainly don’t find it hard to feel sympathy for this girl and her family. Every detah is a tragedy but some just evoke more sympathy than others.
Having a hierarchy of tragedy doesn’t imply that there is a hierarchy of worth with regard to the people involved. It’s a relative measure; about what has the most impact upon one’s personal sympathies.
It was a greater tragedy to me when my father died than when my neighbor’s father died.
It was more tragic to me when a young child in my church died unexpectedly in an avoidable, preventable accident than when a 87 year old woman died after a long, debilitating illness.
I find the murder of an innocent more tragic than the death of someone who did something really stupid and paid the ultimate cost.
A young woman dying on her wedding day (or the eve thereof) for having done nothing more than venturing out to a cafe to enjoy a meal and a visit with her father before her big day? That rips my heart out.
Does that mean that she is, as a person, more important than anyone else? No, of course not. It just means that the circumstances of her death suck in a big way, and affect people emotionally in a big way.
Reading all of this political nonsense into it is over the top. The concept that one cannot express their sympathy and sadness over one situation without paying lip service to every other similar situation is just stupid on its face.
ALDEBARAN –
Where are their parents? Have they no responsibility for their children’s safety? Given the violence and immorality on American TV, how far do you really want to put the weak argument that “they see others doing it and they imitate it” lets their parents off the hook? This is not skipping school or jaywalking; this is something extraordinarily dangerous and stupid. You’re the one who equated it to “sport,” not me. If I thought for one minute my sons would go out and throw rocks at armed men – hell yes, I’d keep them in the house 24/7.
MHENDO –
“Ignoring all the others”? You fail to see any logic problem in infering that citing only A and B means you are “ignoring” C through Z? If I say “I like peas,” am I “ignoring” carrots and broccoli? How does that work?
And FTR, I would see nothing wrong with pointing out “Victim X who died on 9/11 was supposed to get married that weekend,” or “Victim Y who died on 9/11 was nine months pregnant” as indication that their deaths were somehow extra poignant or extra tragic. You may not agree, but then tragedy is apparently a matter of opinion. But if I mentioned those two, am I therefore in your world “ignoring” the rest of the victims? I’m sorry, but by what rationale does that even make sense?
And you’re welcome to your opinion. But the fact of the matter is that most people do find that certain factors make a death seem more tragic – the death of a child, for example. The death of a person who died doing a noble act; the death of a person who had overcome death or great hardship before; the death of a person on the verge of a happy or lucky event; for three more examples. Such distinctions may strike you as “silly” and “irrelevant,” but to many people, they are not. I’m hardly in a position to insist you agree with ZEV that these deaths are particularly tragic, but I must point out you’re hardly in a position to inform him that they are not. And for myself, I will hardly grant you the authority to decree the degree of relationship necessary before I or anyone else can decide that a particular event is a tragedy.
I’m out of here.
I’m not actually out of here. I just forgot to delete that from the bottom of a quoted post.
I’d be interested to hear the reactions of the relatives of these dead people at you appearant indifference.
Why is it, mhendo, you seem to have such a hard time allowing other people to have thier own opinions? Just because I may find these deaths a bit more tragic than you do, does not mean that I am wrong. Nor does it mean that you are wrong. Why does anyone have to be wrong? People have a wide range of emotional reactions to different situations. If someone feels that a certain event is tragic, then why would you have a particular problem with that? My own reaction may be based on past experiences and personal emotional situations that have happened to me personally. These experiences and emotional situations are what form my reactions to events such as these. Since my reaction is my own and is probably based on experiences from my own life I do not feel the need to justify or explain it.
Jodi
Fine, call it nothing more than a matter of personal opinion if you like. Indeed, you’re probably correct that “most people do find that certain factors make a death seem more tragic – the death of a child, for example.” I don’t, but i concede that you and they are perfect entitled to your irrationality on the issue. I may not agree with it, but i can understand the emotions from which it springs.
What i don’t understand is taking a single awful incident (out of many hundreds or thousands), and then further singling out two individuals, neither of whom you have any personal attachment to or contact with, and launching a lament about them as if they somehow stand for or overshadow all the other victims of that same attack. I don’t there’s anything particualrly reprehensible about it; i just find it all rather pointless and illogical.