Here’s a thread from a few months ago on almost the same topic. Our OP might enjoy reading it:
I suspect this was driven by the simple reality that a hell of a lot of people graduate from HS being functionally unable to read, write, or think.
We’ve had threads and threads of college profs lamenting wasting 1 or 3 semesters teaching what used to be assumed was adequately already covered in high school.
So the 2- or 4- year degree becomes the proof you read well enough to follow written instructions. Which is kinda important for any bureaucracy job, which is most of government and corporate America.
It was also supposed to convey that you had certain skills above and beyond the general population: understanding and analyzing complex texts, composing coherent and persuasive arguments.
Thank you. Am travelling now and internet here is sketchy. Will read soon
Elon Musk is talking out of his ass, unsurprisingly.
The more education you have, the higher your median wage (cite). Can someone provide a cite about liberal arts degrees having less value than no degree, please?
As others mentioned, employers want a 4-year degree in something for many, many jobs, even those that don’t need them. I guess it’s an initial screen or something.
OK, found my own requested cite. From there:
While liberal arts grads don’t earn as much as STEM or healthcare majors, they fare well in the job market: the average liberal arts grad earns $20,000 more than the average high school grad, and the top 25 percent earn $90,000 or more per year.
It says “average”, so I don’t know if that’s skewed upward by high earners, or if they really mean “median”.
In my field of engineering, having a four-year degree (at a minimum) is a requirement to be a “member of the club” and the potential to make good money. And it is unfortunate, IMO. I work with people who have engineering degrees but are totally and completely clueless when it comes to engineering, yet they’re paid big bucks. Because… degree. And I work with technicians who are 10X more valuable vs. the average engineer, but are paid 1/3rd what they’re paid. It’s wrong, stupid, and insulting.
Well, gee, I have Bachelor of Fine Arts, a four year degree, yes, but about as far from a STEM as you can get.
Comparing myself to co-workers who have no degree… uh, yeah, I’m doing better on several levels. Even if I’m at the bottom of the middle class at present. Well, I do qualify as middle class, as opposed to “working poor”. Looking at co-workers who have any degree vs. those who don’t… yep, I’d say people with degrees are generally doing better.
I’m also going to note that I have a couple of co-workers currently in programs for a certification in something like HVAC who, also, seem to be doing better than those who got done with high school and stopped there. Or who were drop-outs.
I think in part having the self-discipline, ability to focus, and a plan to accomplish something taking more than just a day or two (that is, a multi-year plan) tends to winnow out those who more capable/functional/whatever. Used to be a lot of folks didn’t finish high school, so having that diploma was the mark of distinction. Now it’s some sort of college degree.
I just wish having a trade was accorded more respect and offered more to students, because we DO need people in HVAC or fixing cars or building things.
Although @Crafter_Man’s post also has a lot of wisdom to it.
I think most posters agree on
- There is some positive correlation to college degree and earnings.
- On average STEM degrees have more potential for higher earning
- On average, liberal arts college degree holders earn more than
non-college goers. - People working hands-on like plumbers, electricians, AC techncians, carpenters etc make a good living…in some cases earning more than degree holders.
- Employers these days are looking for degree holders in specific areas of work rather than a general degree in liberal arts.
- Success in business/start ups doesn’t depend on college education. May help but not really crucial.
Did I miss anything important ?
That appears to be a good summary.
The one thing missing is something about those guided into college, who rack up high debt but don’t actually get a degree. Not sure how to cleanly sumarize the disservice that they’ve been dealt.
Glad you brought that up. I know a singular tech who was literally holding our entire organization together with bailing wire and was drastically underpaid, despite being vastly more knowledgeable, important and hard-working than any of the engineers that were supposed to be doing the exact same job. They were in fact utterly dependent on his expertise and how he was jerked around by management was a crime IMHO.
That was finally partially redressed when a new boss realized just how vital he was. But he is still hamstrung by the lack of a formal degree, blocking further advancement.
As a general trend, yes. But plenty of exceptions still abound. I know someone that got a fairly bullshit degree from an online school, because it was the quickest thing he could do to promote to management. All he needed was a degree - any piece of paper would have worked (I think his ended up being in business, but art history would have worked just as well for his purposes).
And, of course, correlation is not causation.
Although, for what it’s worth, some of the people who understand things like “correlation is not causation” learned it in college.
Yes, although sometimes I get the impression (as in the quote in the OP) that to respect such careers necessarily means disrespecting college education. The idea that one kind of career is worthwhile or valuable or worthy of respect and others aren’t needs to die. (As does the idea that the only point of higher education is job training.)
No disrespect to people working in trades…opposite in fact. Huge respect to them…they make our daily lives better in so many ways.
I have a son who is pursuing engineeing(computer science) and a daughter who is an architect and is now working here in India and has no intention of working abroad. My son otoh intends to pursue his Masters in usa or Australia.
No disrespect to college educated kids either. Why would I ?
My intention of the OP was I just wanted to know the current trends in usa wrt education and jobs.
A couple of points:
The fact that employers require “a degree” for many jobs that in past times did not require one is simply the mechanics of hiring from a large applicant pool. Nothing more than that. I get 1000 applicants for 1 open position, the first thing I do is filter out those who don’t have a degree. Now I don’t have 1000 to look at, instead some smaller number. That’s all there is to that.
I worked as a contractor at a national laboratory, part of the Department of Energy, anyone employed by the laboratory was required to have an advanced degree. That meant EVERYONE: Secretary, HR rep, etc. Because it’s an important science lab, yah? Can’t have any uneducated people roaming around, yah? Consequently, there was a large contract worker population throughout, people who were actually doing important jobs based on their skills. But there folks were not brought on as employees because they did not have advanced degrees. At one point the President of the organization actually gave a talk acknowledging this as a problem that needed addressed. Not to get rid of the contractors, but to bring them on as employees (they weren’t getting benefits, pensions, advancement, etc.). I’m not sure how it all played out, but at least the President was talking about it.
All this to say that the fetish for degrees in employment can be tricky.
Agreed. That is the central issue. It’s faux-populist elitism. “Oh, well of course I have been educated because I am a better class of people. But you? You peons? Don’t worry your precious little heads about all that education and thinking that comes with it. I’ll do the thinking for all of us. But you know what you could do for me? Fix my AC and unclog my toilet, please. That’ll do just fine.”
I think, as a society, we do oversell education as a pathway to success (and there is some self-fulfilling prophecy that happens when we do that), but I don’t for a minute believe that is the sort of concern Musk and other elites are expressing when they lament the over-emphasis on higher education in American society.
I’m always confused by these type of conversations because all contractors I am personally friends with or relatives do quite well for themselves.
As a Poli Sci major who has done pretty good, I’m not complaining,
But all my friends/relatives in skilled trades with a small contractor business have bigger houses and nicer cars than I do.
The statistics regarding average income for different education levels are entirely true. But it doesn’t mean a Poli Sci major who is an asst manager at Publix makes more than a Plumber who repipes houses.
If your contractor shows up to give you an estimate and his 80k F-250 with the high end Ford package and custom tires is nicer than your vehicle, well the estimate isn’t gonna be cheap.
As soon as they’re not an employee and are a contractor owning a business, they’re really businessmen, not tradesmen. The economic power is in owning the biz, not what the biz does.
But the point that it is quite possible to do better as a tradesman employee than as a retail employee or low-level corporate / government white/pink collar clerk or teacher is certainly valid.
But the guy that owns a drycleaners is in a very different place than a guy who works in one. Same for a trades company, be that plumbing, HVAC, electric, erection, carpentry, etc. The guy who owns the plumbing company has a different life than one of the guys who unclogs pipes for him.
How is this different from any other industry?
Because of survivor bias. I know lots of guys who tried to start landscaping business out of high school and found that the magic formula of
Buy $30,000 in equipment, including an old truck.
Hire four guys who didn’t go to college at $12/hour
Bill them to customers at $40/hour
Bill 120 hours a week ($40X120 =4,800)
Pay 160 hours a week ($12X160 =1,920)
Profit!
Was easier said than done.
The four guys don’t think they are deserving of anything less than $30/hour at which rate there is no profit.
So now you are spending 60 hours a week, 20 of them working for $40/hour, and 40 finding the customers to pay you that $40/hour.
It isn’t. Which was my point.
You seemed to be saying that these trades-based business owners you know were / are doing well for themselves. As if the reason for their high income was the fact they were trades-based. Not that the reason was that the people you were talking about were owners, not employees.
Perhaps I misunderstood you. Perhaps not.
Yes I do think you misunderstood me.
An education of the College Level is definitely an advantage. There are numerous studies that support the fact the higher the education the higher the average salary is.
But just as every plumber doesn’t become a contractor, not every college graduate becomes a middle class success story.