Well to throw a bit oil on the fire:
There are also rumours circulating for some time that already a few months ago zarqawi got killed 
But who knows that maybe he has a twinbrother who never had a leg wounded or amputated or whatever.
Salaam. A
Aldebaran – you seem to be on top of things so I’ll ask this of you ------- an earlier poster seemed to say that Zarqawi didn’t exist – until he backtracked and said that he really meant that “Zarqawi” should be called by another name, even though everyone else is calling him “Zarqawi.” Then we have this discussion about Zarqawi’s legs. Now you seem to indicate that Zarqawi is dead and throw out the idea that Zarqawi’s unknown twin had his leg amputated. Since you’re clearly up on this subject — how does all this relate to the “not enough blood in the video” issue. I’d like to get a clearer picture of your position here.
What’s there to follow?
The report that Z had a leg amputated in pre-invasion Baghdad was yet another intelligence failure.
Or the susbequent report that he didn’t have a leg amputated in pre-invasion Baghdad is another intel failure.
The leg can’t be on and off at the same time.
Nothing to follow.
Also, IIRC, there’s another prominent fellow who’s been killed once or twice as well as subsequently captured and running free.
I think that these sorts of things highlight the lack of sufficient HUMINT.
Aldebaran reports:
I seem to remember that there were “rumors circulating” that no Jews were killed in the World Trade Center because they were all forewarned.
(Note to A: I’m sure that you would never accept rumors and teashop gossip as gospel fact. I am bringing this up as a reminder to those who may read your post and give it more credence than it is due until such time as more solid information materializes to either corroborate or disprove)
Having read the Al-Jazeera story about ‘skeptical bloggers,’ I have to say the reasons they’re skeptical seem pretty weak: as I said, it looked like lots of blood to me; his reason for being in Iraq (while not very wise) doesn’t strike me as incomprehensible; I think the guy in the video looks exactly like him with hair and a beard (despite the poor quality); I obviously can’t place an Arabic speaker, but the sound is bad, so I’m not going to just accept the judgment of some yahoos; and so on. So as far as real doubts go…
My observations of the video…
I originally thought that this was somehow staged… and reading the various opinions can change one’s view of things…
i just just reviewed the video…
I think that Nick Berg does move… but there is one guy on his back and the other on his legs. and his hands are probably tied so the lack of movement isn’t unreasonable.
It looks like he does squirm but it could be the captors that are moving him.
The body position changes suddenly from a fetal position to a lying on stomach position… without anyone on top of him on the first thrust down…
It seems like Nick’s mouth is wide open on the first few attacks. (Oh i viewed this at work without sound on)…
only near the end of his death is his mouth closed.
It’s hard to tell if there is lots of blood or not. Although in the middle of Nick’s murder, there seems to be some blood.
…
…
Is there a better quality video?
I mean some of the speculation talks about gold rings and glare, white hands instead of dark hands, etc…
I think that the disagreement between asrivkin and Albebaran stems from two diametrically different world views, and cannot be resolved by appeals to logic. After all, people are not logical. And Ockham’s Razor very often falls down when confronted by this fact.
Here is one way of looking at the situation.
- We have the beheaded body of an American citizen who had been reported missing in Iraq.
- We have a grainy video that seems to show a man matching the description of the deceased (and who declares himslef to be this person) being put to death by four masked men.
- The executioners “justify” their act by invoking anti-American rhetoric in a manner typical of Islamic extremists.
- It is undeniably true that Islamic extremists have committed similar atrocities in the past.
- Conclusion: the man was killed by Islamic extremists who filmed the deed to broadcast as propaganda.
Within certain boundaries, this is a perfectly logical conclusion given the circumstances. But let’s look at it another way.
- The United States Government has consistently proven itself capable of brutality and willing to go to any end to advance its agenda.
- Nothing is certain to get Americans more riled up than images of a helpless and innocent U.S. citizen being put to death in a bloody manner by brutal thugs invoking the name of Allah.
- Just at the point when support for the war has sunk to its lowest point among the American public, this video surfaces to reinforce the notion that our opponents in this war are “brutal savages deserving of extermination.”
- The poor quality of the video means that its authenticity cannot be verified.
- Conclusion: the American government staged the execution for propaganda purposes.
While I don’t believe that this scenario is true, I can easily see how many would believe it. The most disheartening thing I have seen so far in this war was a film of a woman at the scene of street bombing a few months ago. While it was immediately “clear” to me watching from my house that the bombing was committed by anti-coalition insurgents, the woman on the street was pleading with the American soldiers to stop perpetrating these evil acts and leave the Iraqi people in peace. That such an atrocity could be committed by her own people simply did not occur to her.
And if those are the hearts and minds we are trying to win over, we have a task ahead of us that makes Sisyphus’ punishment look mild.
I’m sorry but this video is just begging for alternate explanations. ( I take issue with these explanations being called “conspiracy theories”. The anonymous release of a grainy video featuring a handful of people hardly ranks up there with accusing congress of covering up the JFK murder. And if you want to use the technical definition of conspiracy, it applies in both cases whether you think Al Qaeda or the US made the video.)
First of all, the extremely poor video quality. Just the sort of quality I’d want if I was trying pull off a fake UFO or Bigfoot sighting. The time discontinuity and the audio being out of sync present even more possibilities.
Add in all this shifting on the status of Zarqawi’s leg, plus the military’s changing story on whether they had actually interred Berg. Then throw in that “chance” association with Moussaoui, and you’ve got a perfect conspiratorial delight.
I think this is worthy of speculation, but I’m not sure how it could progress beyond it. Perhaps a congressional inquiry? Or maybe an autopsy could shed some more light.
Kizarvexius,
“World view” has nothing to do with methods on how to look at and interprete sources and both the “conclusions” you write here are absolutely worthless.
Maybe historians and other researchers in the US are been told as a student that you have enough at one “source” to come to a conclusion and that you can throw out everything you want to get rid of when researching an issue… I wouldn’t know.
Yet I have reason to serious doubt on that seen the fact that I came to know quite a few of them.
Salaam. A
Typical. Well Kizarvexius, welcome to the large and growing club of people who have disagreed with 'deb here and had their thoughts deemed “worthless” as a result.
Did you read anything that I wrote? You certainly didn’t respond to any of it. I’m not investigating the prison abuses. It’s not my job. I have no access to any of the physical evidence nor is there any reasonable way I could get access to it. If I had access to it, I don’t know that I have any sort of background that would allow me to make sense of it. Given the evidence I do have and can interpret, it’s a straightforward situation. If other sources arise which I trust have agreed-upon evidence which contradicts what I think, I’ll reconsider.
Will you reconsider? I suspect I already know the answer, based on simple observation and Occam’s Razor.
asrivkin,
I didn’t go back re-reading this whole thread, but in my opinion (correct me if I am wrong) it has nothing to do with “prisoner abuse” but with the video claimed to be showing the murder on Mr. Berg.
If you want to take that one single poor quality video as a source providing you with the absolute truth… Why not? It can hardly be my problem.
Yet I do not jump to conclusions like that and certainly not about a contemporan event that:
a) can not be independently veryfied because it is such a contemporan event in a war zone and with no eye witness or other reports
b) on top of that showed up on the internet on a dubious websate (from which one member here claims it is based in the UK, by the way)
c) on top of that gives a story about a person who’s reason to go and stay in that country is to be considered as not very clear yet. At the very least.
To give just a few factors that make any observation depend on how you personally want to look at. Which is (to say it mildly) not providing for any foundation to formulate any conclusion about it .
Hence there is no way I shall formulate any conclusion about it at the moment.
What is unclear for you in this reasoning?
Salaam. A
Oops. Yep, you’re right-- this is Mr. Berg’s murder we’ve been discussing. I miswrote.
But again, people do this all of the time with everything. And I agree that it has to do with ones worldview. Imagine your wife (or one thereof) goes to the store to buy some items, but comes back empty-handed. She says they were out of what she was looking for. It’s consistent with that but also consistent with her having an affair and meeting her lover while claiming to be at the store. Which one you think is more likely depends on your worldview, including your history with her, and your own psychological makeup.
You have already made up your mind by the sound of it, and I’d wager you will not believe any future evidence against your current viewpoint. You are predisposed to disbelieve anything the US says for reasons that may be rational or may not be. Studies have shown that people do not process facts into a vacuum but fit them into preexisting notions of the world. I’m willing to admit that growing up in the USA has predisposed me to think a certain way.
Again, for the third time: What piece of evidence will it take to convince you that radical Islamists did this? Would it take Osama bin Laden himself praising and taking “credit” for it? Would a forensic team made up entirely of Muslims doing an autopsy do it? Would you need a personal meeting with the murderers in which they claim they are radical Islamists and did it for that reason?
Conspiracy just means that two or more people got together and decided to cooperate.
.
No, I don’t do it “all the time with everything”. I’m trained not to do that and especially on issues like the one we talk about.
Your example is not a very good one, by the way. The fact that she has not bought what she intended to have bought and her reasons for it can be verified easily if I want, and in different ways and by different persons - including myself - at the same time.
I just said again that I have ** NO** viewpoint and stated the reasons. What of my posts is that badly written that remains so unclear to you?
Coming from a complete stranger. I mean: don’t you see yourself how utterly prejudiced you became just because you have a little bit information about me
- Arab
- from the ME
- Muslim
- Anti-Bush.
- Educated at Arab univs
Yet I am also:
- European (mother’s side)
- Educated in Catholicism (mother + one of the univs)
- Have family member in US + several US friends
- Was pro-Dean
- Educated at EU univs
Can you clarify where are you anker your “predisposition” theory? At my Arab or my EU side?
You don’t need a study to come to that idea.
But I am historian. That is the main difference which makes all the difference in approaching issues like the one we talk about.
- Time shall tell as more about this story surfaces, if it ever surfaces. (That is one of the reasons why history is such a fascinating field. And such a difficult and dangerous one).
- No, I do not believe anything that is so called “coming from OBL”. There is no proof that he is alive and there is no proof that he isn’t alive. (For the audience: No, he is not in my basements or secret caves anymore. He left without even saying thank you and goodbye. Typical OBL.)
- I am not a doctor, but in my opinion an autopsy says nothing about the murder being done like it is suggested on the video (we are talking about that video, remember?)
- If I would meet in person people who claim they did it, I would ask myself how they are going to prove it. So it all would depend on their evidence of being who they are and having indeed done what they claim.
Salaam. A
Aldebaran, if you are capable of the level of dispassion you are claiming, then you are to be congratulated. To reserve one’s opinion on matters such as this until a full array of evidence has been presented and analyzed is the mark of a rational and enlightened mind.
I think you will find, however, that the overwhelming majority of your human brethren are perfectly content to make up their minds about ongoing world events without expending the effort to analyze all the available evidence. The logical steps I outlined in my previous post would certainly not stand up as valid in a court of law or in the pursuit of science. I grant you that at the outset. But people have made life- (and indeed, world-) altering decisions based on just such feeble chains of reasoning.
By the way, I did not intend to put words in your mouth when I outlined my second chain of logic above. I merely wished to outline how this same event might hypothetically appear to someone other than an American. Again, the logic is not iron-clad, nor is it intended to be. The fact remains that humans are not logical creatures.
I do feel, though, that my remarks about world view are perfectly valid. There is no “universal” human method of interpreting information. We see things as we are taught to see them. The American media, slanted and agenda-driven as it may be, is generally thought by Americans to be a reliable source of facts. When presented by our media with a video that purports to show Islamic extremists behaving in a manner that is perfectly consistent with our expectations of Islamic extremists, we are inclined to accept it as genuine. Perhaps this is lazy and gullible of us, but no more so than the Iraqi woman who refused to consider that her own people might be responsible for setting off bombs in a marketplace.
It is laudable that you are determined to reserve your judgment until more evidence comes to light. But, if I may go out on a limb, I dare say that this is the result of your own particular world view. For whatever reason, you do not consider the release of this video to be sufficient evidence to attribute the death of Nick Berg to Islamic extremists. You know that it is entirely possible that events transpired exactly as the western press has outlined them. You know that faking this video, while technically possible, would be a difficult and dangerous thing to do. You know that there are Islamic extremists who are perfectly capable of behaving in this way. And yet you withhold your judgment, while the vast majority of those who been following these events have made up their minds. If it is not your “world view” that causes you to doubt what so many others take for granted, then what is it?
I am not saying that you are wrong to insist on seeing more evidence. In fact, I believe that the world would be a better place if more people would reserve their judgment on important matters until they had all the facts. But any examination of this case must, of necessity, take certain things for granted. I assume, for example, that this Nick Berg was a real person, even if I had never heard of him before last week. It might be intellectually responsible to call his existence into question, and to demand proof that he is not just a phantom developed by the CIA for an elaborate hoax. But since I have no compelling reason to suspect that this is the case, I take it for granted that Nick Berg was a real person. Is this sloppy reasoning, or just a mental process affected by my world view? Since I have no compelling reason to suspect that the thugs in the video were anything other than Islamic extremists, I think I may be excused for accepting it to be a fact.
Iraqi police have arrested four in Berg’s beheading. Zarqawi was not among that group.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=awbpuXq1ESHE&refer=us
But if you bother checking at all or not depends on factors already in place. She comes back from the store. She says “there weren’t any oranges left”. Either you think “OK” and leave it or you get suspicious and start making inquiries. And that choice alone implies you have made a decision about what happened.
Just because I have 5% of your posts or fewer (I can’t believe this is my 100th post) doesn’t mean I don’t read the boards constantly. I’ve seen enough of your posts to have some idea of how you will respond to events. The same is true of columnists in magazines I read. I’m not prejudging, i’m judging.
The human side.
So in other words, there is no evidence that you can identify that will convince you that radical Islamists killed Nick Berg.
Desmostylus in #66 mentioned some links but I haven’t seen any mention of this yet:
http://www.aztlan.net/berg_abu_ghraib_video.htm
Includes the “best” case so far for the video being fake:
Can anybody who has seen the video confirm? I haven’t seen the video and I’m not going to.
The aforementioned site contains a link to a statement by a doctor (or so they say): Nick Berg decapitation video declared “a fraud” by medical doctor
It’s a guy wearing a grey tracksuit top, and (probably) holding another video camera. He’s clearly visible for several seconds. In the frames identified in your link, you can see his left hand, but no ear, no cap.
“La Voz de Aztlan?” Guys, I make nearly every effort to not let the messenger influence my reaction to the message but those guys are neither dispassionate, impartial, and independent observers nor, um, all that sane. Is there anybody who doesn’t carry that sort of baggage have anything to say on this?
Also, I am still confused why a gap in the filming has any real meaning besides showing how amateurish the bad guys were. I mean, there is little argument that the guy in orange was Nick Berg and that somebody, at some point, killed him and cut off his head. That there might have been a gap between the two acts says little but that the chopper wasn’t real good at it.