Does Anakin/Darth Vader bring balance to the Force?

Cafe Society
1

Possible Spoilers – I say possible because while anyone over the age of 8 should be aware of the Star Wars story line by now I suppose it is possible someone does not know who still intends to see the Star Wars movies and be surprised. If that is you do not read further.

In Episode I Obi Wan mentions that he thinks Anakin Skywalker is the person who will bring balance to the Force. All well and good but a few questions…

  1. What is unbalanced about the Force that it needs re-balancing? To my knowledge this is never explained. Is it that the Jedi killed all the bad guys (or so they think) so now the Force is lopsided? If so then wouldn’t it occur to them that re-balancing means bringing bad guys back into the picture?

  2. Does Anakin (as Darth Vader) ultimately bring the balance mentioned when he converts back from the Dark Side at the end of Return of the Jedi? We are told several times that there is no return from the Dark Side (which always seemed unfair to me…I mean you can go from Light to Dark so it seems the reverse should be true). Since Darth Vader manages this reversal is that the “bringing balance” part? Or is it Darth Vader killing the Emperor?

Note: I never read the books and do not know if any of this is answered in those.

2

My thoughts: There are always two Sith, master and apprentice. By purging the Jedi, Anakin/Vader brought the numbers into balance–in movie canon, by the end of the Clone Wars, the only Jedi left alive are Obi-Wan and Yoda. Two and two. Ben dies, Luke gets Jedified, still two and two.

3

First he kicked the booty off the light side, then punded the dark side into hamburger. Good enough for me!

4

That might be it, but then the two-Sith thing was apparently originally started because the Sith would otherwise fight endlessly amongst each other. So it seems more a natural solution to the nature of the Sith.

And it also has sort of a problem in that Vader kills Obi-Wan, thus re-unbalancing the Force. By the end of Jedi, there are NO Sith (at least in canon, but then, outside of canon, there are more Sith and Jedi than in the movies anyways).

What we DO know about the Force is that RECENTLY (i.e. not over the hundred years after the Sith vanished, but recently) its felt funky to the Jedi. Their powers have been weaker, their vison clouded, and their dead bodies require actual physical disposal. THAT probably has something to do with the unbalance of the Force, and we don’t yet know what’s up with it. But it does seem to be a recent problem: which to me suggests something about Sidious/Palpatine. Either he knows what it is and has taken advantage of it, or he is the cause of it.

5

Yoda dies too.

As does the Emperor.

As does Darth Vader/Anakin although he switches teams at the last moment…then promptly dies.

That leaves Luke alone unles Leia counts somehow.

6

Right. It would seem kind of wacky if the phrophecy, at greater length was “And he shall balance the force for two decades or so, then he will prompty unbalance it again, and then it gets even less balanced because Yoda dies off, then slighty better when he and his master die. And this shall not apply to the EU universe, in which this phrophecy would make no sense whatsoever.”

7

I more or less thought exactly that–he brought balance to the Force. There’s no prophecy that says he’d keep it balanced. That’s somebody else’s job. :slight_smile:

8

So to be “balanced” the universe needs only 2 Jedi? That’s about the stupidest thing I can think of.

Of course, Mr. Lucas can think of far stupider things, that’s why he gets the big bucks.

9

This is interesting conjecture. This would suggest, then, that the Force’s balance is restored before A New Hope, because Obi-Wan’s body disintegrates.

Maybe it’s not necessary to have exactly equal numbers of Sith and Jedi, it’s just that there were too many Jedi in the Old Republic, and the Force was stretched thin.

10

We have been told that the final movie will shed some light on why certain bodies vanish and others don’t.

What I don’t get now is Yoda’s attitude in Empire. “Too old,” Yoda says, “too old to begin the training!” Well, okay… but if that was going to be a problem, why not raise Luke with Yoda on Degobah? Or why not have Obi-Wan reveal himself to Luke earlier and take him for training? I mean, Yoda acts like its a surprise that Luke both exists and is as old as he is. Pardon me, but: hunh?

11

I am not and have not read either. I, however, AM one of those people who still intends to see Episode III and be surprised. I’ve seen all the other five movies, but still lots of stuff I don’t know in the next movie, like:

who, actually becomes the emperor
how amidala dies
how the children are hidden from Darth, particularly Leia whose existence he isn’t even aware of until he digs it out of Luke’s mind
why Obi-wan ended up on Tatooine again, of all places

And a bunch of other stuff. And I won’t read anymore! shuts eyes and clicks submit

12

Oh and I’m 29. So I’m definitely over 8. :smack:

13

I think he was testing Luke to see how strong his will was, if he would protest that he wasn’t too old, etc.

14

“who, actually becomes the emperor”

You don’t want a hint to this one?

They have the same name! Also, they are played by the same actor!

15

Maybe, though it’s really Obi-Wan’s ghost that argues with Yoda, not Luke. Still, it’s obviously a sincere concern: the Jedi like em young. So why not bring Luke to Yoda when young?

16

I don’t think Yoda was at all surprised by Luke’s existence or age. The “too old” was kind of his last ditch protest, not one that he really meant sincerely. He made the same objection to 8 year old Anakin, IIRC. His whole demeanor in that scene was definitely more consistent with not wanting to repeat past failures by missing the warning signs.

Yoda was clearly against training Luke, and probably only agreed to even meet him after a lot of persuasion from Obi-Wan. And more persuasion was needed to convince him to train Luke. It’s pretty clear that they had a similar debate over Anakin, and Yoda (having won an “I told you so” the first time around) probably wouldn’t have agreed to train Luke at all, but for the fact that there were not really many other options available.

17

You have a point. But, maybe beginning Luke’s training would be as good as advertising his whereabouts to Vader. Although, I’ve never been entirely sure if Vader was even aware of Luke’s existence until he blew up the Death Star. (And if he wasn’t aware, then double what I said about the advertising.) Because, really–if you were looking for your kid, wouldn’t the first place you checked be where your (albeit step-)family lived? He definitely knew nothing about Leia until Luke gave it away.

I’ve been avoiding spoilers as best I can as well, but as for when Padme dies… it will be on Alderaan, long enough after Luke and Leia’s birth that Leia at least has vague recollections of her.

18

…there is another…
To expand on Apos theory, I would say that the Jedi pre Episode I have been a force for Good in the universe. Too good. This has disturbed the Force Equilibrium so the Dark Side has risen to compensate, swinging the pendulem in the opposite direction. This accounts for the “clouded vision” and whatnot. The Jedi think that Anakin will bring balance to the Force by being a force for Good that will counteract the Dark Side. They are only half right. He will bring balance but by being the force for the Dark Side strong enough to thin out the Jedi’s ranks.

So basically by Episode IV, we are close to a new Force Equilibrium with
Dark:
*****Palpatine
**Vadar

Good:
***Yoda
**Obi Wan
Luke
Leia

*=some arbitrary unit of Force

Dark is obviously much stronger at this point. This condition is unstable and cannot support itself.
By end of Episode IV, Obi Wan is dead, increasing an imbalance in the Force:
Dark:
*****Palpatine
**Vadar

Good:
***Yoda
XObi Wan
Luke
Leia

Surplus Good **

Now at this point, there is a surplus of ‘Good’ Force that can potentially go to Leia and/or Luke. In Episode V, ObiWans spirit sends Luke to Deghobah to be trained by Yoda, restoring balance to at a new equilibrium for Good:
Dark:
*****Palpatine
**Vadar

Good:
***Yoda
**Luke
Leia

Yoda, who is now old, dies, forcing an adjustment to Good:
Dark:
*****Palpatine
**Vadar

Good:
XYoda
****Luke
*Leia (briefly showing some Force ability on Bespin)

Now in the final battle in Episode VI, Luke basically has no problem dispatching Vadar, Luke briefly gives into the Dark Side when he wigs out on Vadars arm but soon comes to his senses. Perhaps that even causes Vadar to slip more to the Good side. Vadar switches sides and the force is briefly reaches a new Force Equilibrium just before Palpatines fall down a bottomless shaft convieniently located in the middle of the floor.
Dark:
******Palpatine

Good:
*****Luke
*Vadar
=STABLE

Anyhow…Force Equilibrium theory would dictate that at the end of RotJ, there is once again a serious imalance in the force on the side of Good again, which will once again cause a reaction to attempt to bring it into equilibrium.
Dark:
?

Good:
******Luke
=UNSTABLE

19

I always thought Obi-Wan made a mistake in tapping Pre-Vader as the prophecy filler and it’s really supposed to be Luke the balances the force after the Emperor brings the Dark Side into power.

As far as I can tell nobody has said 100% that Ani is the correct person after all it’s only Obi-Wan that seems so sure.

20

Argh! My post dissappeared.

Short version: Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were right. Anikin could havr restored balance by defeating the Emperor and restoring the Republic, choking out the shroud of the Dark Side over the galaxy. And no one had to die (well, I’m betting the Emperor wasn’t going to go quietly, but you get the point).

Yoda should have helped train Anikin, and should have watched over him more. In fact

Yoda pushes Anikin right into the path of the Emperor!

Yoda screwed up because of his prejudices and he knows it. He wasn’t really serious about keeping Luke away. If he had been, do you really think anything was going to change his mind?

Vader didn’t have to know about Luke - once the name Skywalker became common knowledge it wasn’t hard to put two and two together.