Until this thread I had no idea that anyone could possibly consider it offensive. I guess from now own I’ll say things like "He’s the gentleman that looks as if perhaps he had ancestors in or near the region of Asia that includes, but is not limited to - China, Japan, Vietnam, and Korea, but specifically excludes India and vicinity
My apologies to anyone who was offended by my unthinking use of the “o” word.
My girlfriend (Filipino/Chinese) says that “things are Oriental, people are Asian.” As in, an “oriental rug” but not an “oriental man.”
My grandpa (Korean…war vet) says “oriental” all the time, along with “Chinaman,” but he also wears the same BASF hat every day. As far as I know, that company hasn’t This might be considered vaguely indie rock, especially for a 79 year old man.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
My girlfriend (Filipino/Chinese) says that “things are Oriental, people are Asian.” As in, an “oriental rug” but not an “oriental man.”
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Looks like you beat me to it, Push You Down. I want to take you for granted. Well I will, well I will.
Huh. How many Asians are there in this thread, anyway?
I’ll say it - I hate the word. I’m E. Indian, so perhaps my opionion doesn’t count. My SO is Chinese, and his family doesn’t particularly like the word.
I don’t see how it’s PC to be respectful to people and call them what they like to be called. However, I dont’ make a big deal out of it. if someone says it who is not a close friend I’ll probably just look surprised and move on. If someone asks, though, of course I’m going to say I don’t like it.
Yes for rugs, no for people.
The English-speaking Thais here IN Thailand do not object to “Oriental” at all, although you don’t really hear it said that much. Usually “Asian” or just “Thai,” but I’ve personally never met an Asian in any country over here who considered “Oriental” offensive. My Thai wife certainly does not.
In fact, I can’t say I was even aware that “Oriental” WAS considered offensive now. That really blows me away. It’s been a long time since I’ve lived in the US, but my wife and I lived in Hawaii for 2 1/2 years at one point. BIG Asian population there. (Oriental population, that is.) I can’t recall anyone, Oriental or otherwise, thinking the word was offensive.
This smacks of the heated “debate” among certain resident Westerners in Thailand who feel “farang” is an offensive term for them, but it certainly is not. It simply means “Westerner.” We are referred to as “farang” wherever we go and to our face, but it is in fact not in the least bit offensive, nor is it meant to be. But still there are a handful of indignant Westerners always getting their knickers all in a twist over it, insisting they are being denigrated at every turn. Funny what people will actually believe.
According to this essay by Gordon Lee, a movement to switch from Oriental to Asian started around 1968. I first encountered it as an issue at the end of the 1980s (so it seems to have been pretty slow getting itself established) and knew second generation Chinese and Korean Americans who still used Oriental in the mid 1990s.
As long as the person with whom I’m talking indicates a preference, I will go along with it. (As opposed to getting all huffy and waving around the term “PC” as though being “anti-PC” and rolling one’s eyes was some morally higher virtue than simply being polite.)
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
In fact, I can’t say I was even aware that “Oriental” WAS considered offensive now.
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As far as I can tell from this board, it’s only a US thing - as in in the US.
As for “farang”, if you look into the etymology, it’s only what the Malays called the Portuguese when they first arrived in Batu Feringhi.
[QUOTE=Anaamika]
Huh. How many Asians are there in this thread, anyway?
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I’m Asian, and I think it’s foolish to suggest that the term “Oriental” is inherently offensive. (Actually, I’d like to use stronger language than that.)
Frankly, I suspect that most people who say “Call them Asian instead!” are under the mistaken impression that the two terms are equivalent. They’re not.
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
Until this thread I had no idea that anyone could possibly consider it offensive. I guess from now own I’ll say things like "He’s the gentleman that looks as if perhaps he had ancestors in or near the region of Asia that includes, but is not limited to - China, Japan, Vietnam, and Korea, but specifically excludes India and vicinity
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. If people think it’s improper to describe people as Oriental, perhaps they should use Bobo’s phrase. Either that, or invent their own term.
I’m fine with any word becoming non-PC so long as a PC word is introduced that has the same meaning. Oriental doesn’t have a PC variant. There’s only one word in English which describes people of the oriental look (Chinese, Korean, or Japanese) and that is “Oriental.” Asian just means East Asian, which would include several other people who don’t share the “oriental” look, like Malaysians, Vietnamese, or Filipinos.
“Those of the Epicanthal Fold” is just too unwieldy, and still doesn’t necessarily limit things to the China, Korea, and Japan triad since there are other things like bone structure, skin tone, and skin texture which differentiate Southeast Asians and Mongolians from the oriental look.
Of course it would be nicer if you could just use the proper country of origin/ancestry, but without knowing that you’re still better off to say “Oriental” than to default to “Japanese.” And while it may be true that, for instance, Anaamika’s boyfriend doesn’t like the term: the problem is that it is the only term. There’s very little need to use it in the grand majority of cases, but if you need as precise a word as you can get, but don’t know the exact country of origin, it’s all there is to use so marking it off as unusable just doesn’t do any good in the world.
And so thus, I nominate the new word, “Yellows.” :eek:
On the west coast of the US, “Asian” appears to be the preferred term. In the midwest, “Oriental” still appears to be acceptable (I checked the geographic distribution of the terms a few years ago when a candidate for a job where it would be relevant used “Oriental”).
As I’ve always understood it, the objection to the use of the word “oriental” is founded upon the fact that the descriptiveness of the word is meaningful only from the perpective of those to whom it is not applied.
“Oriental”, going back to the word’s origin, means “Eastern”.
Although the Earth indeed has a North and a South, conveniently marked by candy-striped barbershop poles, there is no East and West- except as relative to a specific point of reference. One can not go to “the East”, one can only go eastwardly of whatever the chosen starting point may be.
China is oriental in relation to Venice, Italy, but if I, in Venice, California, were to board a plane to China I surely hope the pilot would fly occidentally as an oriental flight would take much longer.
“The Orient” is only oriental when peering through Marco Polo’s Venetian blinds.
The objection is of the “why should we be defined according to your perspective?” variety.
I hesitate to call it “Eurocentric”, since the Europeans refer to themselves as “the West” and not “the Center” (although they somehow managed to get the Prime Meridian to sail stright through the U.K.). True, before Columbus’ “look, Ma, no plans!” voyage, Japan was the easternmost point of the known world, while Europe and west Africa stretched to the westernmost points of the known world. But since we’ve known the world to be quasi-spheric for over a demimillenium, we’ve had plenty of time to adapt our usage. Those offended by the term, believe the time to adapt this particular usage is long overdue.
“Asian” is preferable because, although there is no “East”, there is indeed an “Asia”. The problem that the term “Asian” can be applied to a broader area than was the term “Oriental”, is solved in that now, with Asia as a point of reference, terms like “East Asia” and “Southeast Asia” are perfectly valid.
[QUOTE=jjimm]
As far as I can tell from this board, it’s only a US thing - as in in the US.
As for “farang”, if you look into the etymology, it’s only what the Malays called the Portuguese when they first arrived in Batu Feringhi.
[/QUOTE]
I’m from the US, but it has been awhile. Still, I don’t recall it ever having been an issue in Hawaii. I grew up in Texas, and no one cares about anything there.
Yes, the word “farang” has an interesting history. I can trace it even farther back. But there are even Letters to the Editor in the English-language newspapers here from farangs who get all heated about it. I happen to know that at least some of these letters are published to make the writer look foolish.
[QUOTE=bienville]
“Asian” is preferable because, although there is no “East”, there is indeed an “Asia”. The problem that the term “Asian” can be applied to a broader area than was the term “Oriental”, is solved in that now, with Asia as a point of reference, terms like “East Asia” and “Southeast Asia” are perfectly valid.
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I disagree that it’s preferable, precisely because it’s inaccurate (as you pointed out above). If one wants to argue for using “East Asian,” that would be more acceptable. “Asian” alone, however, is not equivalent at all.
Besides, even the term “East Asian” betrays a Eurocentric bias. After all, one never hears one speak about “West Asia,” right?
My wife (of Japanese ancestry and the physical features associated with it) doesn’t find the word “offensive” as much as archaic. To her it smacks of some Rudyard Kipling “white man’s burden” mindset and Charlie Chan stereotype. Somewhat like calling blacks “colored people.”
Alsso, she can’t hear the word “oriental” without immediately thinking “inscrutable” and she is completely, um, scrutable.
Thailand and its neighbors are in Southeast Asia. Whenever someone here refers to East Asia or East Asians, it’s automatically understood that they are referring only to China, Jaoan and the Koreas.
[QUOTE=JThunder]
Besides, even the term “East Asian” betrays a Eurocentric bias. After all, one never hears one speak about “West Asia,” right?
[/QUOTE]
Um, not right. We hear of West Asia all the time over here, especially with all of the rice exports to there.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
According to this essay by Gordon Lee, a movement to switch from Oriental to Asian started around 1968. I first encountered it as an issue at the end of the 1980s (so it seems to have been pretty slow getting itself established) and knew second generation Chinese and Korean Americans who still used Oriental in the mid 1990s.
As long as the person with whom I’m talking indicates a preference, I will go along with it. (As opposed to getting all huffy and waving around the term “PC” as though being “anti-PC” and rolling one’s eyes was some morally higher virtue than simply being polite.)
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
That said, is it just a matter of being polite or trying to establish moral superiority?
I don’t think so. I think Oriental is a perfectly useful word, or ought to be. I do consider it to be a bit dated, and wouldn’t generally use it to describe, say, a modern city like Hong Kong, but I might use it to describe aspects of a modern city. Something like this: The bright modern facade of Hong Kong, with its huge, gleaming cubist skyscrapers still conceals elements of Oriental mystery, of traditions that span the generations and a culture that was old when northern Europeans were still strangling their children in the bog to appease the sky gods."
(I hope the literal truth of what I just wrote about northern Europe doesn’t offend any people of Euro-European descent, including myself.)
Frankly, it bugs me to see “Oriental” get tossed in the bung heap because all the associations I have of it are positive – fine arts, interesting cultures and mythologies – and I hate hearing that it’s really all about me feeling superior to other people because they have yellow skin.
As for this crap about “it’s racist to call people Oriental but not objects” – what obvious bullshit. Let’s see how this works with other terms generally associated with bigotry, shall we?
“Hey, that nigger food is great, but you’re hungry again an hour later!”
“Man, look at the intricate detail on the carvings on this kike jade piece!”
“Oooh, the light feel of this wop shawl is perfect for fall!”
Nah, I just don’t buy it. If we allow the PC police to taint the word Oriental with connotations of bigotry, soon it’ll be about bigotry and nothing else.
By the way, don’t anybody call me “Caucasian” any more. My ancestors don’t know diddly about the Caucasus mountains. I’m a generico-American, and any other term used to describe me is, well, bigoted. But it’s OK if yo’ve been using the term all along, I understand and forgive you for the ignorant sluts you are.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
According to this essay by Gordon Lee, a movement to switch from Oriental to Asian started around 1968. I first encountered it as an issue at the end of the 1980s (so it seems to have been pretty slow getting itself established) and knew second generation Chinese and Korean Americans who still used Oriental in the mid 1990s.
As long as the person with whom I’m talking indicates a preference, I will go along with it. (As opposed to getting all huffy and waving around the term “PC” as though being “anti-PC” and rolling one’s eyes was some morally higher virtue than simply being polite.)
[/QUOTE]
Yeah. My friends from my neighborhood back home are mostly Southeast Asian and have said to me that they don’t care either way. But most people I’ve encountered in college and beyond have been pretty clear about preferring their nationality or ethnic group, and if that’s not known, Asian (or East Asian). Oriental is a dated term. I’ve not encountered anyone going nuts over it, but why is it every time on this board when the issue of changing or updating how one refers to an ethnic group, there’s a lot of gnashing of teeth about it? How hard is it to make the change, seriously? Is it worth the ire?
The post-Civil Rights Movement experience of people of color has involved a lot of self-definition after decades, centuries of being defined by Whites/Europeans/Westerners. Immigrants from Asia didn’t label themselves “Oriental” - Whites/Europeans/Westerners did. IMO, refusing to acknowledge this is incredibly jingoistic.
Regarding the used of the word Yellow, Yan Espiritu has written about the Pan-Asian movement in the late 60s in Berkeley and other parts of California, and there was an emerging Yellow Power identity and political movement at the time.
