I don’t understand why people keep saying “Oriental” is any less ambiguous than “Asian”. As bienville pointed out, it just means “Eastern”, and if you want to argue what it has come to mean in common usage, the same could be argued for the term “Asian”.
Since “Oriental” simply means “Eastern,” I guess they’d hardly be expected to know they were from “the East,” especially since they were HEADING east to get to the US. Cecil did a Straight Dope column about how “Orient” came into use.
As for the “Yellow Power” movement, that sounds maybe similar to the adoption by some younger members of the gay right’s movement of the word “queer.” Older gays were horrified that this taunt they had suffered from for years was suddenly being worn as a badge of honor.
Hmmm, in fact, I guess that’s why you rarely hear “Oriental” over here, just “Asian.” Not because it’s offensive, but rather because they’re not using the same reference point.
And BTW: The luxury hotel The Oriental has a proud 125-year history on the Chao Phraya River here in Bangkok, and certainly no one objects to ITS name. It’s consistently rated among the top 5 hotels in the entire world. (There’s even a Somerset Maugham wing. reportedly, when he arrived AT The Oriental, he was so sick with malaria that the German general manager wanted him moved somewhere else for fear he would die there. he wasn’t moved, and he recovered. Might be apocryphal, dunno.)
and there are quite a few Thai-owned businesses with “Oriental” in theri name.
Oops! I didn’t mean it is preferable in any kind of objective “final word” kind of way. I meant “Asian” is preferable to those who object to the word “Oriental”. Sorry.
Well, if the main argument in favor of “Oriental” is that it is more precise than “Asian”, and that we should be as precise in our speech as possible, isn’t the most precise option (when a specific nationality/ethnic origin/cultural identity is unknown) to specify the region in question with clearly defined language? Asian, clear. East Asian, clear and more precise.
“East Asian” even has one fewer syllable than “Oriental”. If we’re looking for precision, I gotta say “East Asian” wins.
There is nothing Eurocentric about calling East Asia East Asia- even if people didn’t refer to West Asia as West Asia (which is not as uncommon as you make it out to be). East Asia is East Asia because East Asia is East Asia.
Thais are NOT East Asian. They are Southeast Asian. No one here thinks of Thailand, Vietnam, etc., as East Asia.
Didn’t say they were, even used the term “Southeast Asian” in my post prior to the one you’ve quoted.
Incidentally (not directed at Siam Siam), “Southeast Asian” still doesn’t have any more syllables than “Oriental”.
I’m an Asian (Filipino) and I don’t think “Oriental” is offensive in so much as it is ignorant. As a few previous posters have said, “Oriental” is used to describe objects, not people.
Everytime I hear “Oriental” in reference to a person, I imagine it being said with a long Southern drawl stereotypical of rednecks and hillbillies. It’s not about being PC (clearly I’m not) - it’s about being educated or at least sounding like you are.
With regard to the Japanese, Thai, Chinese and some other Southeast/East Asian cultures, I believe they don’t take offense to the word “Oriental” simply because English isn’t a widely spoken language in some of those countries.
No, didn’t mean to imply that you did. But there seems to be a focus on East Asia in the thread, and over here that’s considered a relatively narrow geographic area removed from Southeast Asia. Americans (at least the ones I’ve been familiar with) consider “the Southeast US” as just part of “the South.” Here, though, Southeast Asia is never confused with East Asia, it’s always distinct.
BTW: High tea at The Oriental Hotel can still make you feel like you might actually run nto Maugham or Kipling in the next chair. Pricey, but quite fun to do occasionaly.
I once ran into mom kipling. Scarred me for life, but never again did I forget to knock before opening a closed door.
Indeed.
The only one trying to establish “superiority,” here, appears to be you with your attempt to take offense at anything you have chosen not to understand. Your first two posts contributed nothing other than your supercilious anger.
Now, the rest of your third post actually made an attempt to participate in the discussion, (although it was still burdened by your unnecessary anger), but you had already surrendered any claim to a respect for your views before you got here.
The question was whether anyone objected to “Oriental” and “Why?” and you have provided no information that actually addresses that point. So, when I note in passing that the people who get most upset about changes in language (even artificial changes) appear to be more interested in taking unnecessary insult than in displaying courtesy, I can thank you for providing an example of just that point.
If you called me an Oriental I probably wouldn’t get offended. But growing up Vietnamese in the 1970s I have been called far worse.
If the person who said it was older, I would probably not even blink. Coming from a younger person I would probably wonder if they had just transported here from the 70s.
:rolleyes:
Jeez, I don’t REMEMBER surrendering any claim to respect for my views. Isn’t there supposed to be a ceremony or something? Held on an aircraft carrier or a courthouse, or at the very least, a library?
Au contraire. I explained why I had trouble with PC folks hijacking the word “Oriental” and burdening it with a connotation of bigotry that I don’t think it carries for most people, and why I think that the “Oriental is for things, not people” will just lead to the term itself being labelled generically offensive. I see that in your response to my points you got … nothing, and plenty of it.
Sorry to get here late. I’ve been trying to get this one figured out for a few years now myself.
First, Oriental is a colonial word from a past era. As such, it was always at best neutral and at worst contained some sort of derogatory bias.
Enough people in the US find the word offensive, that Miss Manners would say you should use Asian when referring to people regardless of what your personal views on the subject might be.
To understand where the Oriental versus Asian thing started in the US, check out this site.
As pointed out by other posters, Oriental and Asian mean different things in the US and in the UK, Canada and Australia.
I’ve searched before, and maybe audreyk is still around to comment, but in Hawaii, “Oriental” versus “Asian” doesn’t seem to be an issue.
Many of you may not be current on this “Oriental” versus “Asian” thing because 20 years ago “Oriental” was not a rug. 20 years ago “Oriental” to mean people from the “Orient” was not nearly as popular as “Asian” but still common enough usage, especially among the older generation. Sometime after the mid-80’s the catchphrase “Oriental is a rug” was born, meaning it’s okay for objects but not people.
The other catchphrase also used by some people to explain the Oriental versus Asian, is that Oriental is like “Ngger." Thankfully, in this thread, it’s been explained as more like “negro.” My father is a decorated combat soldier of two wars faught in the Orient, and lemme tell ya when he wanted to be derogatory “Oriental” was not the word used. He also used “black” to refer to African Americans although he was raised to say “negro” instead of "ngger” way back when. FWIW, my father used both Oriental and Asian interchangeably
Why people trot out Kipling as a racist is beyond me. Kipling used common words of his time in much the same vein as Mark Twain, but that doesn’t make him racist. I’d be happy to go through Kim in another thread to understand where Kipling’s racist smoking gun is supposed to reside 'cause I personally don’t see it. Kipling wrote a lot about colonial life in India because he was trying to make a living, but he was also a fluent Urdu speaker and chronicled his absolute loathing for England and boarding school in Stalky & Co.
Evil Captor - I kinda shared your attitude the first time I ran into this subject on the boards about 6 years ago. It was a WTF? But I’ve been researching it ever since and while I haven’t found any really satisfying explanation, the colonial bias one at least makes sense to me.
As I have a Chinese wife, and 3 kids that are AmerAsian, I having been trying to understand this subject. Again, when I went to UC Davis as a Chinese major in the early 1980’s, Oriental was not a rug. IMHO, I think that many people that get their panties in a twist over this are neither Asian nor have gone beyond the “Oriental is a rug” catchphrase. I do often respond with “Swiss is cheese, so what’s your point?” And occiasionally get a better understanding of what the point is. Again, there are enough people formerly known as Orientals in the US that object to the word “Oriental” for people that common courtesy dictates using “Asian” instead if you don’t know the nationality.
“Very foolish it is to use the wrong to a stranger; for though the heart may be clean of offence, how is a stranger to know that? He is more likely to search truth with a dagger.”
Mahbub Ali, Kim
For those interested, some older Oriental threads:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280541&highlight=oriental
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=154356&highlight=oriental http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=123837&highlight=oriental http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=154356&page=1&pp=50&highlight=Oriental
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152046
Arghhh, previewed and everything but “word” was missing in the quote.
“Very foolish it is to use the wrong word to a stranger; for though the heart may be clean of offence, how is a stranger to know that? He is more likely to search truth with a dagger.”
Mahbub Ali, Kim
I have two (count 'em, two) asian friends and this has come up before. They don’t find it exactly offensive so much as, something like, “quaint.” They do feel its got some pejorative connotation, but not with any oomph behind it.
One of these two friends recently moved to a state on the Southeastern seaboard (US, I’m presently in Califronia) and one of the first things we heard back from her was a kind of amazed “Oh my, they call me oriental here!”
-FrL-
Why does this bother you so much? Neither term is precise, so it’s pointless to object to one replacing the other. “Oriental” is only accurate if you start from a Western viewpoint. There’s nothing inherently offensive about the word and I don’t think anybody has said that there is. Nor has anybody called anybody a bigot for using it. But it’s outdated, like you said, and carries connotations some people don’t like. They actually have to live with the term. And it seems like you’re imagining the persecution from wannabe-superior people and the PC people.
Your first two posts were content free snide remarks that contributed nothing to the discussion and mocked at least one other poster for having the temerity to simply note that he found it offensive. Finally you posted a bit of handwaving that dismissed, but did not actually address, the issues raised in the Gordon Lee article or any comment actually posted in this thread while throwing up a bit of strawman to tear apart.
Take the time to actually participate and perhaps you will contribute something worth discussing.
Only by those who adopt the silly “Oriental is a rug, not a person” mantra.