Now that I’m thinking about it, I think my acquaintance was just overzealous. I can’t imagine the guy she was defending would have preferred Oriental. I’m pretty sure she didn’t consult him about it.
Sage Rat argued for the use of “Oriental” in order to distinguish Japanese, Chinese and Korean people from other ethnicities based on appearance. Post 82 points out that this distinction is not possible to make. I thought it was pretty clear. What are you having trouble with?
You are too hung up on etymology. Meanings change.
Besides which, how is this an argument for “Oriental”? Oriental means “from the Orient”. It doesn’t specify an appearance either.
So you object to Asian because it is not specific enough, yet object to other terms because they are too specific. Yeah, that makes sense. You aren’t barred from anything. If you enjoy sounding like a rube, by all means continue to use the word “Oriental”. You are free to do so.
I don’t think you’re following the point at all. “Oriental” is outdated and has negative connotations. There’s nothing intrinsic in the word itself that is objectionable, it’s just that Asian people prefer to use a word that lacks the negative connotations. Why does that bother you so much?
If that’s what it comes down to, then what’s all this other stuff about? What bothers me is the argument that there’s something intrinsic about the word “Oriental” or for the desire to have a word with that meaning that’s offensive.
“East Asians don’t like the word Oriental.” That’s all you need say. If you don’t want a response to the other arguments, then why make them?
Tell me definitely that these statements are not true, and then I’ll buy this argument:
Indians are not Asian.
Iranians are not Asian.
Turks are not Asian.
The point is, that in context, Asian is often ambiguous. Look at what our British posters say – to them “Asian” means exactly what you’re not saying it means.
are true :smack:
Despite all the claims of offensiveness (and I know it is used in a negative way by some Thais), I never minded being called Farang. In fact, when the staff of the little waterfront bar I was drinking in discovered that I was just about the only foreigner who would eat the vinegary food from the local Lao street vendor, I was promptly dubbed Farang Lao, which I wore as a badge of honour.
Then again, in HK I was quite happy to be gwei lo. I might be able to let myself be offended by that term if I really put some effort into it, but I just never bothered to be.
JThunder, happy to call you Oriental if that’s your preference. You wrote you were born and raised in the Orient. Where? PI? Again, we’re talking basically Oriental and Asian in a US context, and in the US context you’ll find yourself in the minority with “Oriental.”
in the US, my research suggests that in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s, Oriental was a term that few people specifically objected to. Oriental was old fashioned, archaic, possibly had a colonial negative bias, etc. It does not necessarily follow that Orientals *liked * or *preferred * the word. In fact a slow grounds root movement took place to where Asian now is the preferred choice. The catchphrases and PC police probably helped create more distaste for “Oriental” than was actually there 20 years, but words change. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter why “Asians” generally prefer to be called “Asian.” And more specifically prefer to be called by their enthnicity if one is to use a racial label.
There will always be exceptions. There is no black and white definition of what constitutes Asia. Does it include the Indian sub-continent? What about Bhutan? Does it include Australia and New Zealand? The Polynesian/Pacific Islander’s probably can be included in “Asian” but what about the English immigrants? Are Australian aboriginies or PNG natives Asian? Or Oriental for that matter?
You’ll find exceptions of people that don’t want to be referred to by the current geopolitical country they are from. I grew up with an Okinawan family that was vociferous they were not Japanese. They viewed the Japanese as an invading imperial power bent on destroying the Okinawa culture, language and way of life. There are plenty of Chinese minorities that feel they are second class citizens from a militarily occupied state.
I have never heard of this distinction. What does an Asian who doesn’t look Oriental look like?
Well, there are certainly no limits on the rudeness of people on all sides of these discussions.
I would never make an overt move to “correct” someone who had not actually used a slur–and nearly everyone on this thread has noted that “Oriental” is not a slur. (If you knew the person was Filipino, I would guess you could have called them Filipino. Other than that, you might have just run into a rude person.)
I have no problem with Ascenray’s desire to have a more specific term and if he chooses to debate the term with people who hold out for “Asian,” Og bless him. (Since language is only occasionally rational, I suspect that his campaign may not actually succeed.)
His efforts, of course, appear to differ from people who run about crying “The PC police are coming! The PC Police are coming!”
A caucasian from the Caucas Mountain region, Kazaks (Cossaks) from Russia/China. Of course, these examples don’t really look either Asian or Oriental. 
I would postulate, perhaps, that I look “Asian” but not Oriental. I’m from the same ethnic group as this guy and this guy.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. I do not think there is anything intrinsic to the word itself that makes it outdated, just as there is nothing instrinsic about the word “Negro” that makes it outdated. I don’t know what other argument you think I’m making. You may have been confused when I refuted Sage Rat’s argument. I don’t know.
I don’t know. Why do you care? I know that many Asian people prefer not to be called “Oriental”, so I don’t call them that. I would most likely call an Iranian person “Middle Eastern”. I would call an Indian person “Indian”. I’m not even sure what I would call a Turkish person - can’t say it ever came up in conversation. I don’t call any of those three groups “Asian”. YMMV.
But let’s say you do - how exactly does it hurt you to call them Asian and to call those other folks Asian too? The U.S. Government can make do without using “Oriental”; I don’t understand why it’s so essential for you to use.
You seem to be arguing that because you think that word is better, you should continue to use it in spite of the fact that it bothers the people you are using it to describe.
As is any word that attempts to classify people by their physical appearance. What’s your point? Like I said, if ambiguity bothers you, then simply use the specific race of the person you are talking about.
So what part of “the usage is different in the UK” didn’t you understand?
A significant number of Asians do not look Oriental. Even those who are by definition Oriental do not generally look Oriental. Take Filipinos and Malaysians or Indonesians. Or Indians. However, I really see nothing offensive in the term. It may be archaic or it may be lacking in descriptive power in certain cases, but it’s certainly not offensive. For instance, I don’t believe Occidental is offensive. People would look at you funny if you refer to Europeans or Americans as occidental, but I don’t think there’s anything offensive in that term.
As I said earlier, I don’t object to people who decide to be cautious and use “Asian” instead. Hopefully, they’re aware that the two terms are not equivalent. (Realistically though, they probably aren’t.)
I do, however, object strenously to those who repeat the old “Oriental is for objects., so use ‘Asian’ instead” mantra. That’s ignorance, plain and simple – and it’s also a great deal less accurate. Unfortunately, that’s what happens when we let the PC police serve as our linguistic watchdogs.
I don’t get why you keep saying that. That aphorism is descriptive, not proscriptive. Asian is the word of choice in the United States to describe people, but not to describe objects. It’s still commonplace to say “Oriental rug”. I don’t understand why the aphorism itself would bother you. It simply describes what is common practice.
And I still don’t get the “accurate” argument. You want to use a word that describes a group of people based on their ancestry being somewhere in a certain generalized region of the earth, but complain about having to use a word that covers a somewhat larger generalized region of the earth? If you’re so hung up on accuracy, why not just use the name of the particular country of origin?
Waaah! It’s so unfair. :rolleyes:
I would say that you refuted it.
To be certain the borders of the traditional “oriental” look don’t end nicely with the borders of the big three East Asian countries. And certainly Asian will work for the great majority of cases. But if more accuracy is possible, why not use it?
If Eskimos really did have 15 words for snow, does this mean that at least 14 of those words are deragotory of snow? Of course not.
Being able to say almost the same thing is proven to be workable for most cases. But if you have a word which provides greater clarity and which is also well known to most people, then that’s a good thing in every way that I can tell. If I knew 15 words for different varieties of snow and could expect anyone else on the street to understand them, so far as I’d be concerned that would be pretty cool.
Again, the reason we don’t use it has nothing to do with how accurate it is, it has to do with it being dated, having negative connotations, and people preferring to be called Asian.
If you had a friend who preferred to be called Micheal, would you call him Mike? Not unless you’re a jerk, right? But your reason for calling him Micheal has nothing to do with any intrinsic quality of the word itself.
Having more than one word isn’t the reason “Oriental” is offensive.
If you’re that hung up on accuracy, what’s wrong with “East Asian”?
My point is exactly this-- people don’t always look like what they are. So why use terms that imply a distinct, consistent difference?
For the Asian/Oriental distinction to be useful, we’d all have to have the same idea of what “Asian” looks like. And for people who don’t see many Asians, this idea would be based on a very small sample or caricature. Doess “Asian” mean a petite build, with a light, slightly yellow skin tone, black hair, and eyes with epicanthic folds? What if I have lighter hair and dark skin like a Filipino, and am 6’3"?
Most of this discussion is silly. There is no consensus what “Asian” means, or what “Oriental” or East Asian mean. We are all using different definitions and terms, which leaves no point in arguing what is “correct” or “wrong”, and consequently what is “less offensive”. What’s a Pacific Islander versus an East Asian? Would Pacific Islanders and East Asians be okay with those distinctions? Moreover, it’s silly to argue about what is or what should be something acceptable to call someone else. You can’t know what anyone will find offensive. It’s not like there’s some inborn sensibility of what’s offensive to all Asians, much like there’s no inherent knowledge among all Caucasians about what’s fashionable or all dogs what brand of dog food is best. I don’t understand the need for people to insist their terms for something as personal as racial identity are correct or that others are wrong.
Respectfully, does it matter how you perceive the word, or how people other than the one possibly being offended perceive anything else? If someone finds something you said about them lacking somehow, would you persist in calling them that and argue they shouldn’t be upset for those reasons?
It’s not the same thing, anyway. “Occidental” is just a funny word, and not as universally understood as “Oriental”. You mean he didn’t do it on purpose?
Heh. Actually, I work with a Kazahk person. She’s fluent and does translation work, so I assume she’s a fair representative of what an average Kazahk looks like. She does not look Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Filipino, Laotian, or Cambodian, but she definitely looks both “Asian” and “Oriental”.
“Oriental is a rug” chaps *my * ass. IMHO it is an ignorant catchphrase or at best a generational thing. You see, even 2 decades ago Oriental was not a rug, and I’m guessing you’re probably under 30.
Entemology is from the latin oriens. Depending on what dictionary used pretty much means “rising” or “east.” Eg, the sun rises in the east. Back in the heyday of the British empire, the “Orient” meant lands east of the bosporus straights. And the people who inhabited that area were drum roll please Orientals.
“Oriental is a rug” was popularized maybe in the 1990’s. I don’t know. I do know that at the University of California, Davis, circa 1985, Oriental was not considered a stinking turd in polite conversation. I was a Chinese major, hung with the politically active Asian crowd, had politically correct Asian girlfriends that thought it was cute when their SO called them “ornamentals.” First time I heard that “Oriental was a rug” and now a bad word was on these boards about 5 years ago.
As I posted earlier, I’m sure I’ve communicated with more than 20 different Asian-American organizations to try figure out what the deal is. Majority of answers were “I dunno, it just is”, the all too familiar “don’t you know, Oriental is a rug” or “what are you a bigot?”
at the end of the day, Oriental, Asian or even East Asian are very imprecise terms. What’s a Taiwanese aboriginal or a PNG native considered - they live in East Asia, and may not look Asian…
I’m with **JThunder ** though, “Oriental is for objects” is a misleading inaccurate explanation for why Asian should be used in the US. “It was a British colonial word with some negative baggage” is a lot more precise but not as good a sound bite.
I don’t think that most people would understand the word. I only even know what East Asian is because I live in Japan and they refer to Southeast Asians here some, and by inference of where “Southeast” refers to, I can guess where “East” is.
But here, let’s take for example that you’re casting for a movie. You want someone who is fat. It’s not polite to say, “We want someone fat” and so you use the word “obese.” Obese is a commonly understood word, and at least more PC than “fat”–so it’s usable.
If I’m casting for someone Oriental though, and I’m not supposed to use “Oriental”, then what word am I supposed to use to trim out people who don’t conform to the look I want? If some Filipino comes for the part, am I supposed to give him a note saying, “No, I’m sorry, you don’t look Asian enough”?
i’ve never seen ‘Oriental’ used for anything but hotels, organisations… and rugs. while the term by itself is not offensive i would certainly go 
if anyone tried to label me along with stuff like that instead of just ‘Chinese’.
pfft, you Occidentals are a wierd bunch. 