Does anyone actually object to "oriental"?

The BBQ Pit
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[QUOTE=AudreyK]
Heh. Actually, I work with a Kazahk person. She’s fluent and does translation work, so I assume she’s a fair representative of what an average Kazahk looks like. She does not look Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Filipino, Laotian, or Cambodian, but she definitely looks both “Asian” and “Oriental”.
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Really? Not the few Kazaks I’ve met. Maybe just because I see them in China and they obviously stand out among the Chinese as being very different. The light brown hair and brown eyes - somewhat Amerasian looking if that’s a reasonable description. Could be in China there was intermixing with the Uighers, who are also certainly not Chinese looking. Maybe if I saw them with a bunch of pasty white guys, they would stand out as being obviously Asian…

Is the person you work with from China, Kazakstan or Russia?

Sage Rat - I just don’t get what you mean by someone looking Asian versus Oriental in the US context (UK context is pretty clear). For the life of me, can’t imagine where there is a difference. A stereotypical Fu Manchu type is either, a big ass Mongolian like in Raiders of the Lost Ark II is either, a Filipino is either, Chow Yun-Fat/Lucy Liu/Joan Chen are either, Keanu Reeve obviously has Oriental/Asian genes, etc. and I know you’re not talking about aboriginals, Iryan Jaya highlanders or a central Asian type. Can you give an example of someone that looks Oriental but not Asian, or vice versa?

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I vote for replacing both “oriental” and “asian” with “Beverly” and ending this mash-up of a thread. Who’s with me?

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[QUOTE=China Guy]
Can you give an example of someone that looks Oriental but not Asian, or vice versa?
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Anyone Oriental also looks Asian, so that one is impossible to show. Asians who don’t look Oriental though, I can probably find some pictures of when I get home from work.

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Or, actually, essentially East Asian = Oriental. So unless you can’t tell the difference between East Asians and Southeast Asians…

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[QUOTE=China Guy]
A caucasian from the Caucas Mountain region, Kazaks (Cossaks) from Russia/China. Of course, these examples don’t really look either Asian or Oriental. :smiley:
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Just for the record, Khazaks (the Turkic people who inhabit Kazakhstan) are not the same thing as Cossacks. My understanding is that the latter refers to many different tribes (“hosts”) in southern Russia and Ukraine, and can refer to people of various ethnicities including Tatars, Poles and Slavs who are part of a Cossack “Host.” More information here.

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[QUOTE=China Guy]
“Oriental is a rug” chaps *my * ass. IMHO it is an ignorant catchphrase or at best a generational thing. You see, even 2 decades ago Oriental was not a rug, and I’m guessing you’re probably under 30.

Entemology is from the latin oriens. Depending on what dictionary used pretty much means “rising” or “east.” Eg, the sun rises in the east. Back in the heyday of the British empire, the “Orient” meant lands east of the bosporus straights. And the people who inhabited that area were drum roll please Orientals.

“Oriental is a rug” was popularized maybe in the 1990’s. I don’t know. I do know that at the University of California, Davis, circa 1985, Oriental was not considered a stinking turd in polite conversation. I was a Chinese major, hung with the politically active Asian crowd, had politically correct Asian girlfriends that thought it was cute when their SO called them “ornamentals.” First time I heard that “Oriental was a rug” and now a bad word was on these boards about 5 years ago.

As I posted earlier, I’m sure I’ve communicated with more than 20 different Asian-American organizations to try figure out what the deal is. Majority of answers were “I dunno, it just is”, the all too familiar “don’t you know, Oriental is a rug” or “what are you a bigot?”

at the end of the day, Oriental, Asian or even East Asian are very imprecise terms. What’s a Taiwanese aboriginal or a PNG native considered - they live in East Asia, and may not look Asian…

I’m with **JThunder ** though, “Oriental is for objects” is a misleading inaccurate explanation for why Asian should be used in the US. “It was a British colonial word with some negative baggage” is a lot more precise but not as good a sound bite.
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I’m sorry, but this reads like an utterly disorganized rant. What exactly is your point? I don’t know what goes on at UC Davis except that they have a lot of cows there, but all of my Asian friends in the San Francisco Bay Area in the 1980s used the word “Asian” and preferred to be called that. Yes, I asked them. Your point about “ornamentals” makes no sense. My Japanese girlfriend used to make similar jokes, sometimes answering the phone by saying “Herro”, and things like that. That didn’t mean she wanted me to seriously call her Oriental. I would have gotten a very strange look indeed if I had said that. I don’t understand what you think jokes have to do with it. Carlos Mencia jokingly calls himself a “beaner” on television, but I certainly wouldn’t call him that if I met him in real life.

Don’t know what the fact that it derives from Latin has to do with it, either. :confused:

So what is your point? Is it that you want rugs to be called “Asian rugs”, or is it that you want Asian people to be called “Oriental”? And in my opinion you miss the point of the catchphrase. “Oriental is a rug” is not an explanation of why Oriental is not used to describe people, any more than “I before E except after C” is an explanation of why words are spelled that way. The explanation is that “Oriental” is an old fashioned word with old fashioned connotations. Your observation that “It was a British colonial word with some negative baggage” makes perfect sense.

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And not that it’s any of your business, but no I’m not under 30.

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[QUOTE=Sage Rat]

If I’m casting for someone Oriental though, and I’m not supposed to use “Oriental”, then what word am I supposed to use to trim out people who don’t conform to the look I want? If some Filipino comes for the part, am I supposed to give him a note saying, “No, I’m sorry, you don’t look Asian enough”?
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This message board has numerous casting calls for Asian actors, and almost all of them seem to get by without having to use the word “Oriental”. Perhaps because unlike you, they aren’t doing whatever they can to come up with some tortured reasoning why they must use that word.

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[QUOTE=lowbrass]
This message board has numerous casting calls for Asian actors, and almost all of them seem to get by without having to use the word “Oriental”. Perhaps because unlike you, they aren’t doing whatever they can to come up with some tortured reasoning why they must use that word.
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And? All I said is that their job would be easier. If they’d rather waste their time going over twice the number of applicants as they need in order so as to be PC, that’s their issue. If there was a PC version of Oriental (that was commonly understood), I suspect that they would use it.

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[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I’m sorry, but this reads like an utterly disorganized rant. What exactly is your point? I don’t know what goes on at UC Davis except that they have a lot of cows there, but all of my Asian friends in the San Francisco Bay Area in the 1980s used the word “Asian” and preferred to be called that. Yes, I asked them. Your point about “ornamentals” makes no sense. My Japanese girlfriend used to make similar jokes, sometimes answering the phone by saying “Herro”, and things like that. That didn’t mean she wanted me to seriously call her Oriental. I would have gotten a very strange look indeed if I had said that. I don’t understand what you think jokes have to do with it. Carlos Mencia jokingly calls himself a “beaner” on television, but I certainly wouldn’t call him that if I met him in real life.

Don’t know what the fact that it derives from Latin has to do with it, either. :confused:

So what is your point? Is it that you want rugs to be called “Asian rugs”, or is it that you want Asian people to be called “Oriental”? And in my opinion you miss the point of the catchphrase. “Oriental is a rug” is not an explanation of why Oriental is not used to describe people, any more than “I before E except after C” is an explanation of why words are spelled that way. The explanation is that “Oriental” is an old fashioned word with old fashioned connotations. Your observation that “It was a British colonial word with some negative baggage” makes perfect sense.
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Can you explain how “Oriental is a rug” means an old fashioned word with old fashioned connotations?

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[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
And? All I said is that their job would be easier. If they’d rather waste their time going over twice the number of applicants as they need in order so as to be PC, that’s their issue. If there was a PC version of Oriental (that was commonly understood), I suspect that they would use it.
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Perhaps this is just my own bias, but I would think that nobody is really all that confused by it. I personally would be very, very surprised if one or more Indians showed up to a casting call requesting Asians, even though India is technically in Asia. Indians are distinct enough from “orientals” that it’s a reasonable assumption that if a director wanted Indian people, he’d ask for them.

Asian, to me, indicates Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and the countries south of China. Really, it’s no different from United Statesians being called Americans. Is anyone really that confused about where someone identified as an American is from? After all, they could be Canadian, Mexican, Nicaraguan, Peruvian, or Brazilian, and still be technically called American. But they’re not, and there’s no real confusion over it. If it’s necessary to describe a large regional group, Peruvians and Brazilians can be and have been called South Americans, just as East Asian has been offered as a possibility.

Oh, but you don’t even know what East Asia means? You don’t think it could possibly describe the eastern half of the continent?

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[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
And? All I said is that their job would be easier.

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No you didn’t. You said, “what word am I supposed to use to trim out people who don’t conform to the look I want?”, as though Oriental were an essential word for which there is no replacement.

The point is, they don’t need to. If you have evidence that casting agents are getting twice the number of applicants as they need, please post it. I think that’s bullshit. We have been using “Asian” in this country since the 1980s, and its usage is commonly understood and agreed upon among everyone except a stubborn few like yourself. And frankly, nobody cares about that. They just see a person like you as another backwards hick.

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I get a little bit uncomfortable if I’m referred to as caucasian particularly by non caucasians. Really, that means I come from a subst of asians so the term “asian” is completely non descritive. It merely means that I’m not descended from native American populations or Africans. When the term caucasian is ascribed to me, I feel that the non caucasian person using that term feels it neccessary to describe me as a racial outsider.

Caucasians (or Europeans) are often blamed as a result of colonialism for all the ills that are presently evident in the non caucasian world.

Yet I’m a Canadian and a Dutchman. Canada has no colonial oppression in its history, and whereever the Dutch colonized, even where oppressive, they left thriving democracies.

So call me a Canadian or a Dutchman, that won’t bother me, but please don’t associate me with the Germans , the French, the Russians, the Belgians, the Poles, the people of the Balkans or majority Americans.

Caucasian is a racist term. Oriental is a racist term as well. Chinese, even better Mandarin, Cantonese, Tibetian , Japanese, Korean etc are social terms and much better reflect the different natures of our particular social characteristics.

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[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
and whereever the Dutch colonized, even where oppressive, they left thriving democracies.
[/QUOTE]
Oh. Well, that’s okay then.

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[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
whereever the Dutch colonized, even where oppressive, they left thriving democracies.
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Sukarno and Suharto were democratic freedom fighters, then?

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Chinese, even better Mandarin, Cantonese, Tibetian , Japanese, Korean etc are social terms and much better reflect the different natures of our particular social characteristics.
[/QUOTE]
If Oriental is a rug, then Mandarin is a duck.

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[QUOTE=China Guy]
Sukarno and Suharto were democratic freedom fighters, then?

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Washington and his forces were freedom fighters as well. Today Indonesia is the third largest democracy in the world. No matter how you cut it, particularly for a country with so much diversity, socially and geographically with so much fuel for discord, it is remarkable that this country is democratic today. Not that I credit the Dutch. But Indonesia’s history as far as the Dutch concerned was obviously not an impediment towards this achievement.

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[QUOTE=lowbrass]
You said, […] as though Oriental were an essential word for which there is no replacement.
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Really? Hm…

uses the way-back machine

Hmm…essential? Nope. That I can tell, I’ve only ever said it would be “nice”.

Yeah, and? How does having a word which is more precise hurt?

Probably it is accurate, really. 99% of casting exclusion comes down to whether or not the person looks the part. Acting ability pretty much only comes up for the main parts. So I don’t know how many Asian-Americans there are or what percentage of them look Oriental versus those that don’t, but whatever that ratio is is pretty much the amount by which casting agents will be receiving and thus dismissing them. If there’s about the same amount, it will be 50%. Assuming that the person is looking for someone Oriental and not someone who is simply Asian-looking.

uses the way-back machine again

Hm…nope don’t see anywhere where I disagree with the usage of Asian. I am perfectly fine with the definition and usage of Asian. I am also fine with the usage of “Oriental”, which does not mean the same thing as Asian.

Now, if you want to popularise the word “East Asian”, then I’ll gladly give up Oriental, but for the moment Oriental is the only word that is commonly understood. Foregoing it achieves nothing in terms of the ability to communicate. And to me, being able to communicate precise concepts is more important than PC-fads. If a word is invented to replace the word which is being banished, and that new word is made to be commonly understood, then sure let’s get rid of the old one. If no word is popularised in the stead of the old one though, all you’ve accomplished is to diminish the number of concepts in the English language. What good is there in that?

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[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Now, if you want to popularise the word “East Asian”, then I’ll gladly give up Oriental, but for the moment Oriental is the only word that is commonly understood.
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With all due respect, you’re about the only person that is clear on the distinction between Oriental and Asian in a US context. It isn’t clear to the rest of us, even the ones that live here in the Orient.

More specifically, when talking about facial appearances, there’s no way even a descriptor like SE Asian can be commonly understood. All those Chiu Chow Thai Chinese, the non Bumiputra in Singapore, all the mixed blood inhabitants in a region, the Polynesian diaspora, and what about those Iran Jayan highlanders? They are all SE Asians and they don’t look very alike. Khmer, Thai and bumiputra all look different, and not necessarily distinguishable from North Asians.

I’m thinking your average American can barely find Orient/Asia on a map, and would find it even more of a stretch that joe six pack could broadly define SE Asia as the areas east of India, south of China and north of Australia.

What is getting more commonly understood about “Oriental” in the US is that it’s not the right descriptor for people. So far, I haven’t seen anything convincing from you that shows how Oriental is a more accurate descriptor (again talking specifically in a US context). Asian, while equivalently ambiguous, at least doesn’t have the “Oriental” baggage attached.

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[QUOTE=Sage Rat]
Really? Hm…

uses the way-back machine

Hmm…essential? Nope. That I can tell, I’ve only ever said it would be “nice”.

[/quote]

I quoted a specific passage that you wrote, and commented on that passage. You divorced my comment from its context, and inserted two different passages. That’s “Stupid Debating Trick #1”, asshole.

You have gotten this far in the thread, and you still haven’t figured out why not to use the word “Oriental”? You’re even stupider than I thought.

Bzzzzt! No, I’m sorry - we were looking for evidence, not bullshit that you made up.

Can’t read back as far as your last post, huh? Dumbass. :rolleyes:

In my first post, I talked about self-righteous people who will whine about their “right” to use the word Oriental. You are one of those people. Have fun with your childish crusade. Your belief that, by using the word “Oriental”, you are accomplishing anything other than making yourself look like a jackass, is unfounded.

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[QUOTE=acsenray]
I believe “farang” can be traced all the way back to interactions between Arabia/North Africa and Europe. It’s my understanding that as far back as the Crusades, the Turks and Arabs were calling Europeans “Franj” (Franks).
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Even older. The historian JM Roberts pegged it to Charlemagne and the Franks. According to Roberts, Charlemagne was proclaimed emperor of all the Christians on Christmas Day of AD 800. The Greeks got a big kick that some Frank was trying to say he was THEIR emperor. Before long, they were using “Frank” to refer to any Western European. then the word made its way to China via the Silk Road, where any European thus came to be called a Frank, or whatever variation it had become. That’s wht the Chinese called the Portuguese “folangki” when they appeared in their ships off the coast of China; that was a remore corruption of Frank. The word spread to Southeast Asia, where in Malaysia the word became “feringhi” and Siam, where it’s “farang.”

A lot of Thais think “farang” was derived from “farangset,” the word for “French,” because, they say, the French were the first foreigners in Siam, in the 1600s. But they are wrong. The Portuguese had diplomatic relations with Siam in the 1500s.