Nobody has yet defined what they mean by “Brainwashing.” Until we agree on what that means, the thread’s a waste of time. It could mean anything from “teaching” to “hypnotizing.”
Sems to me that the entire OP was his definition of “brainwashing.” Most people, myself included, who have actually been in the military have come in to to tell him his definition, his assumptions, are incorrect, or are vastly overstated in inflammatory language. So, we’re going by the OP’s definition and scenario.
Sir Rhosis
All of which is no slam on Lumpy. I do believe he is sincere in his beliefs as stated in the OP, and I have very much enjoyed responding.
I’d explain it to you, but that’d be brainwashing.
Or at least brainwindexing.
No, no, you’ve all been brainwashed. Just waiting for the right phrase broadcast over the radio to rise up and … sorry, can’t divulge - I have a phone call.
I agree with most of this (except maybe the fun part!). Brainwashing it clearly wasn’t, basic infantry training it was.
Wow, my first post and it had a Yoda-ish bent to it.
I have no love for the military, and even I know that what they do in Basic isn’t brainwashing. It’s a form of indoctrination and education, no different in intent than a lot of others like Boy Scouts or Driver’s Ed, if a bit more sweeping in scope and duration. If it were brainwashing, I think they’d be harder on the ones who don’t fit in, rather than washing them out like they seem to.
Or, in other words, I’m not sure Full Metal Jacket and Starship Troopers should be taken as documentaries on Basic Training.
Well, I would have appreciated Starship Troopers’ co-ed training quite a bit, thank you. 
What’s that redheaded actresses’ name? Dana ??
Sir Rhosis
I read somewhere that kitchen duty is considered so unpleasant that the army is no longer allowed to use it as a punishment…is that true or an urban legend?
My entire platoon performed a week of “kitchen duty” (I forget what it was actually called) during the last few weeks of basic (I was the “Pastry Prive”–handed out desserts). K. P., or kitchen duty, or whatever it was called was more of a duty one got assigned to once one was in the actual Marines. I pulled it for a week, helped the night cook out. It was tiring, but was not used as punishment. We all had to do it. No peeling of potatoes, we just dumped in a big bin machine, set it to “Rumble” (or whatever) and it basically knocked the peels off the suckers.
I think this whole “K. P. as a dastardly punishment” is from the movies. Otherwise, those whose M. O. S. was a Cook would be in hell for four years.
Sir Rhosis
[QUOTE=Lumpy]
The similarities to other forms of indoctrination- hostages, kidnap victims, POWs and pollitical prisoners, fraternity hazing, gang initiations, prostitutes- seem compelling.[ul][li]Step One, stress to the breaking point: pain, lack of sleep, endless demands, exhaustion, verbal abuse, the fear of physical abuse.[]Step Two, ego destruction: humiliation and degradation, being forced to address your most basic needs (hunger, thirst, elimination, fatigue) in the most shameful fashion possilbe. All the while being told “you are worthless scum, nothing you feel or think matters, you are not worthy to lick the boots of your betters, you can’t do anything right”.[]Step Three, engender dependency: pleasing your abuser is the only hope of relief from the torment. The initiate develops a whipped-dog love/hate of their abuser.[]Step Four, indoctrination: the abuser presents a new value system. Everything you were was wrong and evil, but now you are offered a chance of “redemption”, if you unreservedly adopt the beliefs you’re expected to. The initiate learns the lessons being taught. Successfully completing the new tasks brings praise, any backsliding returns you to steps One and Two.[]Step Five, graduation: The initiate internalizes the indoctrination, and rationalizes away the abuse as the “tough love” and “discipline” they deserved. You have formed a new value system based on pride in having adopted the new way of life. You become fiercely loyal to the abuser, even to the point of helping break new initiates. You love Big Brother.[/ul]I admit this is the most denigratory possible interpretation of Basic Training, but I’d like to hear some serious discussion about this. I’ve pretty much spent my life presuming that discipline is a synonym for “punishment”. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know where.[/li][/QUOTE]
Army BCT isn’t brainwashing. Its probably a lot easier than it was back in 1989 when I went through it, but its not a robot factory.
I had a rough time in BCT. I wasn’t used to the lack of sleep, the physical training and not being able to do what I wanted to all of the time. And I won’t lie…I was terrified of my Drill Sergeant. I was so scared of this guy that when I saw people that kind of looked like him it freaked me out, months after BCT. But I ran into him 2 years after (he was no longer a drill sergeant, but a first sergeant in another company). You ,now what? He was cool. We even had a beer at the NCO club. He toldme that all of the mind games and stress were designed to get me and the others to work as a unit. On a persoanl note he told me that he “picked” on me a lot because I needed to get a kick in the pants to get myself together because I lacked confidence.
He was right. So the only thing I can say is thanks to him. You shouldn’t leave BCT with your individuality sucked out of you…(its not like the Borg or anything)…but among other things, at least you should learn not to think solely of yourself.
(sorry if this is rambling…its late here and I’m tired)
I wish…the Army needs to hire better advertisement firms. (like the marines, actually. They do have kick ass ads) I don’t suppose you have any proof of what what you say though. I mean, training followers? Do you mean training someone to obey orders in the chain of command? Gee, thats a given. Killers? Well, its a given that a soldier is going to be trained to kill, but I don’t know one soldier that I can order to kill someone just 'cuz I told them to.
I have however been to several leadership schools in the Army and none of them involved having to kill someone.
(bolding mine)
I’m a little confused about how the military forces recruits to eliminate in the “most shameful fashion possible”? 
Are you refering to needing to ask permission to the restroom and/or only going at designated times? I find it odd if you do since K-12 schools and many employers do the same thing. Or are you refering to military latrines consisting of rows of toilets with no stalls? The military does that because; it’s cheap, efficient, & functional, and recruits need to be prepared for field conditions where they’ll lack any privacy at all.
Discipline is not a synonym for punishment.
One of these things is not like the others.
A soldier who will not follow orders is useless. Charging up a hill into gunfire is not a leadership decision. It is a follower decision. The army wants you to shoot well and kill the enemies. They will do the thinking for you.
That’s not entirely true. The history of the military is littered (literally, with bodies) of Medal Of Honor winners that did some quick thinking on their own and sacrificed themselves for the well-being of their mates and the mission, whether it was falling on a grenade, charging up a hill into a hail of bullets or whatever.
Some wars had to be fought, as unpleasant as they are, and those that did so when duty called are honorable men and women that are making the best of a difficult situation.
The idea that Basic is brainwashing is kind of ludicrous when you have a volunteer military. Having been through it, I viewed it as more of a mental and physical game, whereby you play by the rules as you go in order to succeed.
No love for the military? Why not? Did they not honorably represent your country and fight when called for you and your ancestors in every war the USA was invloved in with the notable exceptions of the Vietnam war and the one we are currently in?
The military in the USA can be a fine life…my Father is a retired Major General that devoted 36 years of his life to this country in it’s service, and he is now reaping the rewards of a lifetime of fighting in Vietnam, being constantly away from my Mother and myself and brother, etc.
How is it not honorable?
Whoa, hold yer fire there… I’m not MrDibble but if I may, at no point in that post does he state that he views it as not honorable, nor in fact makes any comment on the merits of service or historical record. I read it as an acknowledgement that under most normal circumstances he will be on the side of the “doves” in a military-issues debate, partly as a way to preempt any possible charge from the “brainwashing” side that only the “hawks” defend the training regimen.
Having served I have great respect and appreciation for the persons involved and for the ideals at the origin of the institution, not so much for some of the policies and procedures established at times. It’s a living human organization, after all; pedestals are for statues and worship is for gods.
gonzomax, indeed a soldier who can’t be relied upon to follow orders is no use… but one who follows them in a mindless “whipped dog” haze, is barely useful for mass human-wave suicide charges. Is your claim that a human whose capacity for independent thought is untampered, will refuse to charge into battle, or kill?
Brainwasher is a bad term. It is impossible.
Unless things have changed in the last generation or so, following orders was stressed. If orders are now irrelevant and soldiers are all little bosses and make their own decisions ,it is a strange military now.
Fact is if you don’t follow orders you are court marshaled . In combat ,you could have been shot in the old days.