Does Basic Training amount to brainwashing?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Othar the Tooth Collector]
I read somewhere that kitchen duty is considered so unpleasant that the army is no longer allowed to use it as a punishment…is that true or an urban legend?
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Every time I’m in a military kitchen, I’m always impressed by how clean and well-organized it is. My own kitchen is a post-apocalyptic CHUD-infested free-fire zone by comparison. I’m pretty sure they don’t want non-staff in there, especially those that resent the work as a punishment, because they’ll just fuck things up.

42

[QUOTE=Lumpy]
I’ve pretty much spent my life presuming that discipline is a synonym for “punishment”. If I’m wrong, I’d like to know where.
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This line kind of jumped out at me.

To me, discipline is one of the highest virtues. Remember that “discipline” come from “disciple.”

Discipline is how you accomplish goals. It’s how you turn yourself into what you want to be.

I became a disciple of running when I was a 240 pound smoker who would get out breath going up a flight of stairs. I applied discipline and hope to complete a 100 miler in May.

I think I first really “got” the concept of discipline when I took a riflery course as a child, and we got indoctrinated with the NRA Gun Safety Rules. They are simply a set of carefully thought out rules, and if you follow them 100% all the time it is impossible to accidently shoot somebody. It’s a good set of rules. In order for these rules to be worthwhile though you have to learn them and practice them and follow them religiously all the time. They have to become automatic and second nature, but yet you constantly need to keep reaffirming then.

In short, they take discipline.

I was so impressed I started making up other rules that I’m anal about following. For example, my keys always go in the same places. I never put them anywhere but in one of those places. Because I acquired this discipline, I don’t lose my keys. Same for the wallet. I have another for the credit card. If I take my credit card out to pay for something, I keep the wallet in my hand until the credit card is returned. That way I never walk out of a restaurant or leave a store and leave my credit card behind.

If you want to do anything truly extraordinary… or even just anything just well, you need discipline. I’ll bet you are a disciplined driver. You have to be to drive a ton of metal at 60 mph, and everybody else around you has to be disciplined.

You don’t drive into oncoming traffic, do you? The rules of the road are a discipline.

Disclipine isn’t punishment, it’s the means to competance.

43

gonzo, looking over this I must own up myself of the same mistake I point out in others: YOU **did NOT **say in any of your posts anything about the mindless “whipped dog” obedience, that was part of Lumpy’s OP.

What you did do however was to also cast your position in the rawest possible language

Yes, of course the training program is aimed at making sure you can be counted upon in following orders, maintaining discipline, and marching into harm’s way w/o breaking and running. However at the same time you DO also need to do leadership development because they promote from within, and they’re not under total control every minute of the day; so at some point, the individual or the small-unit team has to learn when and about what things they can take initiative.

44

[QUOTE=Lumpy]
I’ve pretty much spent my life presuming that discipline is a synonym for “punishment”.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you could have just looked it up in a dictionary.

“Discipline” has a multitude of meanings, one of which is “Teach.” It’s quite possible to “discipline” someone without using punishment at all. If you reward your child with a present for getting a good report card, that’s an act of discipline.

45

Poor arguments . Yes everybody does not become a mindless robot. No you did not and became a fine upstanding citizen. Yes medal of honor winners exist and did very brave things.
All exceptions to the rule. The point of the military is to have a well trained and disciplined unit. Unit ,not a collection of single minded individuals who go their own way. They are trained to follow orders . Try ignoring one in basic and see how far it gets you. Stockade or brig time.
The question is ,is basic brainwashing. I do not think brainwashing really exists,but you can be trained to follow orders without fail. The technique of breaking a man down and building him up to be what you want has been around a long time. It is abusive . It apparently works in most cases.

46

Unfortunately “dicipline” is one of those words that people misuse by using it to only mean punishment so often that the broader meaning gets lost.

47

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
No love for the military? Why not? Did they not honorably represent your country and fight when called for you and your ancestors in every war the USA was invloved in with the notable exceptions of the Vietnam war and the one we are currently in?
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No, they did not. You seem under the mistaken impression I’m American. My country used to be a racist police state under martial law. So you might see where I get the lack of love for the military.

48

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
The technique of breaking a man down and building him up to be what you want has been around a long time. It is abusive . It apparently works in most cases.
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Are you saying Basic Trainees are abused? I didn’t have a great time there, but I wasn’t abused. Looking back on it now the scariest thing about it was what I thought BCT would be like. The rality wasn’t as bad as what gets hyped to people outside of the military.

49

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
No, they did not. You seem under the mistaken impression I’m American. My country used to be a racist police state under martial law. So you might see where I get the lack of love for the military.
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Fair enough. I have to confess to being a malingerer mostly on NFL boards, which represents the majority of my “messageboard experience”, so that I am prone to that mistake. I apologize. So what country are you speaking of, then?

50

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Fair enough. I have to confess to being a malingerer mostly on NFL boards, which represents the majority of my “messageboard experience”, so that I am prone to that mistake. I apologize. So what country are you speaking of, then?
[/QUOTE]

South Africa.

51

gonzomax,

If you think that those joining the military are taught to have others do their thinking for them, where, then, pray tell, do you expect to get the military types who “do the thinking” for the military types?

Basic Training for the US Armed Forces, includes not only such essentials as learning how to use a weapon, how to march, and how to follow orders, but also the essentials of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. One part of the UCMJ is the issue of unlawful orders. A military member may be punished for following an unlawful order. If the member is not expected to think for himself, that provision would not be there.

By the way, the correct term is court-martial.

Oh, and I see you’ve discovered that MrDibble seems to think all militaries are just as evil as his own country’s was during its racist past. I wonder if said poster is even aware that South Africa’s military has also desegregated.

52

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
A soldier who will not follow orders is useless. Charging up a hill into gunfire is not a leadership decision. It is a follower decision. The army wants you to shoot well and kill the enemies. They will do the thinking for you.
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Who is this “They?”

A PFC needs to charge the hill. As part of his fire team (team of 4), he will follow the fire team leader (perhaps a Lance corporal). His Fire Team reports to a Squad Leader. His Squad is part of a Platoon, with a Platoon Sgt and a Lt. the Lt. Reports to…

See, there is lots of leadership in both the enlisted ranks and the officer corps. At each level orders are passed down, and the lower units vary on how they achieve those orders. Following orders is critical so that you know that your flank is protected. That said, you also get to ignore illegal orders. You also tend to decide on HOW to achieve certain orders.

There might be a dozen ways to patrol a street, your orders are to simply patrol - you decide HOW to patrol, who has point, etc.

The General does not send down orders that state that Private Algher will patrol on the left side of the street until the intersection. The General simply states that the battalion patrols the city, and it rolls down from there.

LOTS of leadership, decision making, altering based on the situation, etc.

53

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Poor arguments . Yes everybody does not become a mindless robot. No you did not and became a fine upstanding citizen. Yes medal of honor winners exist and did very brave things.
All exceptions to the rule…
[/QUOTE]
All what are exceptions to the rule? Medal of Honor winners? Certainly. People who are not mindless robots? Not an exception to the rule. I feel confident in saying that there is not one mindless robot in the entire military.
Fine upstanding citizens in/from the military? You seriously think that’s the exception to the rule?

54

[QUOTE=Monty]
gonzomax,

If you think that those joining the military are taught to have others do their thinking for them, where, then, pray tell, do you expect to get the military types who “do the thinking” for the military types?

Basic Training for the US Armed Forces, includes not only such essentials as learning how to use a weapon, how to march, and how to follow orders, but also the essentials of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. One part of the UCMJ is the issue of unlawful orders. A military member may be punished for following an unlawful order. If the member is not expected to think for himself, that provision would not be there.

By the way, the correct term is court-martial.

Oh, and I see you’ve discovered that MrDibble seems to think all militaries are just as evil as his own country’s was during its racist past. I wonder if said poster is even aware that South Africa’s military has also desegregated.
[/QUOTE]

It is called officer training program.

55

Just picture the first day in boot camp. The guys are scared and some a little defiant. Do you guys imply that they could be shipped out with just P.T. They have to be made suitably afraid of pissing off the bosses. They have to be taught to obey orders. They have to be taught to act collectively. They have to learn the consequences of standing up to authority.

56

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
It is called officer training program.
[/QUOTE]

Not only do you have absolutely no idea of what you’re talking about on this issue, you obviously refuse to learn. This latest comment of yours, especially after the proof others provided you that you decided to call “all exceptions to the rule,” proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

57

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
It is called officer training program.
[/QUOTE]

It is not only officers that lead. As I put in my example, we also have the leadership in the enlisted ranks. Simply put, everyone past the point of PFC is leading in some way in the field (and some PFCs lead as well at the fire team level).

Because the military operates on an “up or out” system (you either earn a promotion, or you are shown the door - no Peter Principle possible over the long term), EVERYONE has to, sooner or later, show leadership ability.

58

gonzomax is barely able to form a coherent sentence, let alone a coherent argument.

Sir Rhosis

59

Sorry children ,but the fact is that basic is designed to make an obedient soldiers out of you. The premise is that according to the OP ,is that people are being broken down. That is pretty well agreed upon. Then they are trained to be something more useful. A bunch of soldiers who did not take orders are useless. A platoon of guys who questioned every order would be dead meat.
David Suzuki did a program on this some years ago. “Every mothers son.” The military made it clear that the intent was to make killers who followed orders. The idea was that from any walk of life they could be successfully trained. The techniques of basic are in many countries. They work well.
Military recruit training - Wikipedia I miss where individuality is stressed.

60

[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Sorry children ,but the fact is that basic is designed to make an obedient soldiers out of you. The premise is that according to the OP ,is that people are being broken down. That is pretty well agreed upon. Then they are trained to be something more useful. A bunch of soldiers who did not take orders are useless. A platoon of guys who questioned every order would be dead meat.
David Suzuki did a program on this some years ago. “Every mothers son.” The military made it clear that the intent was to make killers who followed orders. The idea was that from any walk of life they could be successfully trained. The techniques of basic are in many countries. They work well.
Military recruit training - Wikipedia I miss where individuality is stressed.
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While that is true to an extent because soldiers do in fact have to kill and learn how to do it efficiently, as well as learn to take orders and function as a unit from the squad level on up, there is indeed quite a bit of leadership from the enlisted ranks up through the officers, and that leadership is taught AND learned.

There are plenty of instances where soldiers have thought on their own and come up with alternate means to survive, kill, innovate, improve operations, etc, etc.

To believe otherwise (at least with regards to the US military which I am intimately familiar with) is simply deluding yourself.