The other thread running about celebrities being out has spiralled into over 9 pages now so I wanted to ask this question separately.
It has been accepted wisdom in celebritydom (mainly Hollywood) that you don’t come out, even when they have pictures of you sucking another man’s dick (think Ted Haggard - or rather, don’t, it’ll make you feel ill). So no-one comes out and it essentially perpetuates the situation that coming out is a risky move due to inertia. Even worse you have people who are out who go back in based on their career trajectory and agent advice, like Luke Evans.
But we’ve had enough people come out now, and not right at the end of their career either when they had nothing to lose, to make me wonder if this is changing. Still, in interviews I’ve read people who have come out say they’ve been told not to do it, it’ll be the end of them and so forth. I’m wondering:
Does coming out change people’s opinion of, or desire to see, an actor perform or buy a singer’s music?
Is it now a risk to someone’s career? Doesn’t seem to have hurt Ellen or Neil Patrick Harris.
Have we reached the point of critical mass where advice will stop being “don’t come out” soon? Are we at the point where it’s okay to be openly gay and be a celebrity? Or not yet? When WOULD we be there if we aren’t?
I’m thinking of people like Anderson Cooper and Queen Latifah who continue with the “I don’t talk about my personal life” schtick despite the former having published an autobiography, and I can’t help but wonder what it would take for either of them to be able to actually admit to everyone what everyone has been assuming for ages anyway (with someone like Cooper particularly it’s starting to feel pretty sad and pathetic).
No matter how little basis there is in reality for the idea that coming out will hurt your Hollywood career, it will be many years before the fear is gone.
For the majority of actors, it wouldn’t really make much difference.
But, should the actor fall short in any way, it will be blamed on coming out, even if that wasn’t a factor.
There are a few actors it might make a difference for still, like young male teen idols, or extremely prominent actors who are typecast as romantic leading roles.
Being straight and being butch are separate issues If you are “butch” seeming then there’s no issue playing butch roles. If you are not butch seeming, there’s plenty of other roles, like autistic scientist or neurotic psychologist.
Just my opinion with not hard facts to back it up. Seems to me it would hurt your career to start out with your personal life in the open. The types of roles you are offered may be limited. An established star with many types of roles already under your belt may not be effected.
Interesting question. I’d agree with jackdavinci that it’s surely less of a factor than it once was, but still not something to be taken entirely lightly.
Oddly, I think a lot of the public’s reaction might have to do with how deeply closeted the celebrity was in the first place. Harris and Degeneres didn’t surprise very many poeple when they came out, so it had minimal impact on their careers. If, say, George Clooney were to come out, it would be a huge shock and probably a big scandal given his playboy public image. Was his serial model-dating all a ruse? Or does he swing both ways? TMZ and the like would have a field day. And, I wish I could say otherwise, but if I’m being honest, it would be hard not to think about it while watching him in one of his usual romantic lead roles. So, yeah, it could possibly hurt him.
I do have to disagree with your assertion that Anderson Cooper or Queen Latifah not coming out is “sad and pathetic.” Why must that be so? The public does not have a right to be privy to anybody’s sex life. If people were constantly asking me about my sexual orientation, I think I’d refuse to answer too, regardless of the truth, because the question is just rude.
It would depend on your screen image. If you were cast as a romantic leading man, it would definitely have an effect. Producers would fear that the audience would not accept a gay man in romantic scenes with a woman (whether this is true or not, I don’t know, but the people putting up the money are always concerned about matters like this). It’d probably also hurt if you were a macho action hero.
But for other types of roles, it probably wouldn’t matter, especially if you weren’t the lead.
To be clear I specifically said I found the case of Anderson pathetic. You’re absolutely right, the public have no specific right to information about the life of a celebrity just because they are one. I think this changes when someone uses their personal life to advance their career, such as celebrity marriages, because you can’t on the one hand use public knowledge of your personal life to make money and then suddenly decide it’s all private (like when you’re divorcing). There was a highly controversial case recently when a journalist/presenter in the UK had an affair and then used a super injunction to prevent not only his name being released by the press when they found out, but to also stop anyone in the press legally being allowed to say that it had happened. For someone whose career is all about asking people penetrating questions, including about their personal lives (always relevant in politics) this was such an act of professional hypocrisy that it meant he had to resign from his job. A similar case happened with a footballer in the UK who has always traded on his nice-guy image and used a super injunction to prevent news of his affair being publicised, again massively hypocritical. So I disagree that the pubic doesn’t always have a right to knowledge about someone’s private life - I think if you trade on that information people then DO have a right to it.
Turning to Cooper, it’s because he goes to such painstaking lengths to not talk about his personal life when asked about partners to discern his sexuality, but as I said he’s published a book where he does talk about himself and his experiences, so that’s patently untrue. Admittedly it’s about his experiences as a reporter, but that’s still his life isn’t it? He has also spoken about his parents and life growing up, so, again, he DOES talk about his personal life. So, saying when asked “do you have a partner” that “I don’t talk about my personal life” is not a legitimate answer. There are celebrities who genuinely don’t discuss their personal lives and so we don’t know anything about them. Ewan McGregor pointedly doesn’t talk about his family ever, James McAvoy and Anne-Marie Duff don’t talk about their marriage, they’re consistent in not talking about this whereas Cooper isn’t. So when he says he won’t talk about it what he’s actually saying is “I can’t talk about this as it involves divulging things that I think will be problematic”.
Have you ever heard a straight man say he doesn’t talk about relationships? Bradley Cooper doesn’t talk about the details of his, but he at least will tell people they exist and that they’re female.
I don’t want to know the details of Cooper’s sex life, and that’s not what I’m saying: I think you’re misatributing my position. Sienna Miller is able to admit she has male relationships and not discuss them without mentioning where she likes having a penis inserted into her the most.
My point is that he’s said he doesn’t talk about his personal life, and he does. Saying that only appears to cover his romantic relationships, and other celebrities are able to “not talk about their personal lives” in ways that don’t seem like flat out denials or invocations of the fifth amendment. Even if Cooper were straight (he may very well be - I 'unno) I would find it strange to have someone be so incredibly private that they won’t admit to the existence of a partner or disclose their sex. What I infer from that is that either they have something to hide or they’re ashamed about something.
Again in Cooper’s case (I really seem to be ragging on this guy but he’s the best example of this behaviour) does he really think that the viewers of CNN, often a synonym for the “liberal media” are going to react to his coming out with “that gah’s a queer??? Maggie, git me mah bible so ah can thru it aht the tee-vee”. I just can’t help but wonder who he’s getting the advice from that being so secretive to the point of plain weirdness is helping him. He’s largely assumed to be gay, his refusal to talk about relationships gay or otherwise hasn’t changed that (if anything it’s made it more the case), and if this fact mattered he would have lost his position ages ago. What he does have is the stigma of people like me opining on how pathetic his stance is.
This has to be sarcasm, please tell me it’s sarcasm. It’s sarcasm, I know it is; smells like it; tastes like it; got to be.
IMO Ellen is someone who lost a decade becasue of how aggressively she “came out”, it was only when it became a secondary part of her on-screen persona was she able to have the career she’s had. Rosie O’Donnell is finding this out now.
To quote myself from that other (long) thread:
"There is still the perception that coming out will cause fans to flee and ruin a career. Sure, you can point to Ellen - but remember that after her disastrous sitcom, it took awhile for her to come to grips with the reality of it all and later find her niche on the talk show. My guess is there are lots of managers and PR people also telling their clients to just shut up and stay in the closet, armed with statistics and graphs.
It is getting better, but to be honest - if I were earning $millions per year, and knew many of my fan base were women/little girls who might be fantasizing about me someday becoming their boyfriend, I am not all that sure I would have the guts to toss it aside and stand proudly next to my own boyfriend. Call me a money whore, but when you are at the top of your game and want more, more, more it is probably easier to convince yourself to make room in that closet for bundles of cash than to come out and be a role model and then later appear on Dancing With The Stars if you are lucky.
I notice many finally come out when they are old(er) or their careers have pretty much tanked anyway…and I don’t think that is a coincidence. Brave? No. But financially - well, we’ll never know - but they can now Gayly skip to the bank in their twilight and not give a damn what anybody thinks anymore."
To add to that, I would hope things are better, but when you are young and just starting out, you live from gig to gig - and anything that even might screw up your chances at getting a role would probably be something you would be concerned about.
I would agree that this is probably more problematic if you think you might get cast in romantic leading roles. Be honest - would you buy Ellen falling madly in love with Rupert Everett in a romantic film? It would be almost kind of icky. Better would be to have that script be about two men or two women falling in love.
But as a singer, or character actor, or dancer or newscaster - I don’t see where this should be a huge problem today. News for a minute and then “who cares”…
My perception regarding Anderson Cooper, and this is only a perception, based on observing him and reading about his life, is that his desire to keep his sexual orientation private has very little to do with his career aspirations and everything to do with his family. They have been through some rough stuff, and we don’t know everything that went on. I do wonder whether he might want to keep everything private while his mother is alive – whether because she has specific concerns regarding his orientation, or because of other traumas she has suffered through being publicly exposed.
In any case, I feel nothing but respect for his decision. I certainly don’t find him in any way pathetic. It is his life to share as he chooses, and we have no right to know any more than he is willing to tell us.
I think we are on a trajectory where coming out is having less and less of a detrimental career impact, but it’s a choice that each public figure needs to make for him or herself, based on the specific circumstances.
Yes, you are correct. When he says he doesn’t talk about his personal life, he means he doesn’t talk about his romantic relationships. As I mentioned, the fact that he talks about other aspects of his personal life does not obligate him to talk about all aspects of his personal life.
It does not follow that “you talked about where you grew up, therefore I get to hear about your sexual orientation”.
Or they don’t consider it any of the public’s business.
If you really want a world where sexual orientation doesn’t matter, than I suggest you spend a bit less time obsessing over it. That might help a little.
How does he make a big deal about not talking about it? i don’t think I’ve ever seen him bring it up without someone asking.
In anycase I don’t think there’s any obligation for Cooper to reveal the gender of his romantic partners.
As to the OP, I agree its probably not a big deal unless ones striving to be a leading man or some sort of teen idol or sex-symbol (of course, you can still be a gay sex-symbol, but I imagine that’s a smaller market).
With regard to Ellen and Rupert, I don’t know if that specific pairing would work, but I can see them in other straight pairings. Ellen I could see with Tom Selleck, and Rupert’s gayness is indistinguishable from his Britishness. I don’t think the issue is gay vs straight, it’s character type and chemistry and channeling. Jim Parsons is not very butch but he manifests this not as “gay” but as “nerdy autistic”.
I’ve said above why I disagree with that. If he wants to sell books and make money based on his private life and experiences he has to at least expect people to feel like they can ask about other things. Of course he isn’t obligated to talk about it, unless you’re in court you’re never obligated to discuss anything. Do you not accept that it’s a reasonable area to ask about with someone? If you knew someone in reality who when you asked them about their relationship status said “I don’t discuss my personal life” wouldn’t you be surprised by such a reaction?
Again, then don’t try and coin off the rest of your personal life. However unjust you might consider, it if you’re in for a penny then you’re in for a pound (as they say in the UK) when it comes to your personal life being up for discussion.
Hmmmmmm - I think we’re looking at this from different angles. I don’t consider stating that you happen to have a partner who is male/female to be discussing one’s sexuality. Of course it confirms what your sexuality is, but it’s not discussing it. Or say I discussed my partner in gender neutral terms, is that discussing my sexuality? You’ve twice now suggested that if this topic is broached in any way it has to lead on to some comprehensive discussion about either sex or sexuality itself, but it doesn’t.
What would help even more is if people treated discussing their same sex partners as completely unremarkable and their personal lives with the same sex as no different to one with the opposite sex. You appear to be taking a heterosexist position that doesn’t consider a life in which someone is required to not discuss a substantial part of their life (the very existence of a romantic life, whether they have a partner or a family) as any less equal or different than one that a straight person would have, even though I can’t ever envisage a straight person being told to do the same thing. It’s like the statement “I don’t understand why gay people have to rub that they’re gay in your face” coming from someone wearing a wedding ring and who moments earlier was discussing their spouse and children.
So I don’t think that your argument works on that level, as you’re essentially saying that if people didn’t talk about being gay people would accept it more. This is despite the fact that it’s clear that acceptance of homosexuality hasn’t been driven by people not talking about it, so that’s patently false.
That theory makes more sense to me than the idea that he’s worried about how the general public perceives it. Acceptance among the general public is high enough now that I don’t think it would be a career killer, but it is pretty plausible to me that a gay person might have concerns about how some relative from an older generation might deal with it becoming publicly acknowledged.
