Does diversity improve the quality of education?

Great Debates
81

Isn’t that an argument against AA, then? Gets rid of the stigma of undeserving acceptance to those who would have made it regardless?

Anyway, I think you and I are seeing her comments differently. It seems to me that her statement implied that without AA, black folks with good SATs, APs and high GPAs wouldn’t be able to get into universities anymore - not about how people see black students as catching undeserved breaks (although that attitude certainly does exist, I just don’t think that’s what she was talking about).

No, you are absolutely correct. It isn’t completely about merit, but merit has a lot to do with it. And that girl’s qualifications are a great base. Obviously her recommendations, extra-curriculars, essays and whatnot also come into play. Plus just sheer randomness. I had three friends from high school apply to Stanford - two were top students with good extracurriculars, the other was just an average students with no really special extracurriculars or connections. The average one got in, along with one of the good students, but one of the other one’s got left off for reasons we can only speculate about. She ended up going to Harvey Mudd, though, and she’s quite happy about that so it all turned out well. But admissions is often very weird.

No, I understand that. I was more talking along the lines of the vast majority of average students, not morons. I mean, what do you imagine would be said to me if I stated on this Board that I was going to Howard so I would only be able to date a few women? People would ask me if I was a racist or something - and deservedly.

Of course, now that I read that quote again, she might have meant that white guys wouldn’t date her, but that’s not how I took it at first.

Anyway, back to what I was talking about, maybe my perceptions are different from others due to where I grew up in an area where whites made up only about 30% of the population. I’ve had girls tell me I wouldn’t date me because of my race. But for the most part, it was all racial harmony and no one was really separated along color boundaries. I found a marked difference in college where the school was suddenly a large majority white and many blacks I met only wanted to hang out with each other and were much more difficult to make friends with. It was sort of a shock to me.

I’m certainly not saying there isn’t a power differential, I’m just saying everyone should just be a little friendlier and more open to each other. Bah.

Well, athletes bring in money. It’s a cold and calculated financial concern. Same with legacies - it’s a kiss ass to the alumni so they contribute more. The reason race bothers me, in general, is that it’s stupid. I recognize that racism exists, but how does legislating racial distinctions make us a more colorblind society? Why should Diane the black daughter of a lawyer and a businesswoman get bonus points over John the white son of a janitor? Or namely, why should Bill Cosby’s kids get an extra chunk of points over me? I object to it because black doesn’t necessarily equal disadvantaged anymore and white doesn’t necessarily equal advantaged. I’d be much more supportive of a sort of economic-status AA where people from disadvantaged areas get a bonus no matter their race.

Anyway, I don’t really have a dog in this fight since I’ve never been hurt by AA - but I think it’s just a short-sighted, ineffective policy that breeds resentment and seperation.

82

I don’t really consider myself an AA supporter. I don’t know how I feel about it. I tend to think that those who are avidly against are just as crazy as the people who are vehemently for it. I can see the unfairness in the policy to a certain extent, but does it really hurt anyone? I don’t think so. Maybe one day I’ll be able to articulate a more solid opinion.

Your approach actually seems more patronizing than the current one. Like I said, simply not meeting the qualifications does not equal remedial. It would worry me that someone would feel like they would need to take a whole slate of remedial coursework simply because they got rejected from their dream school.

Does AA really legislate racial distinctions? If AA disappeared today, would we stop seeing race?

Race was a big thing a generation ago. If you were the wrong color, well no good education for you.

Is a generation long enough for us to say that race still isn’t a big thing? I don’t know. That’s why I lean more towards keeping AA than not.

You’re right. But then again, how many Bill Cosby’s kids are competing with you? Black Americans are still at the bottom rungs of society, the last group on all the “good” rankings and the first on all the “bad” rankings. We’re always talking about this on this board. But when it comes to discussions on AA, suddenly Oprah Winfrey and Bill Cosby become representative of all black Americans. We cannot have it both ways.

IIRC, economic status is considered by UofM in their admissions.

Actually, they do. Predominately black schools award scholarships to white students all the time, in the sake of diversity. Alcorn State is one that I know of. I think Howard always offers scholarships. My sister attends vet school at Tuskeegee U and more than half the class is white.

Sadly, predominately black schools have stigmas attached to them that predominately white schools do not have. And most white students are not interested in being racial minorities.*

If serving the African American populace is a part of Howard’s mission statement, they don’t have to. Just like seminary schools don’t have to open their doors to secular humanists or military schools don’t have to open their doors to pacifists unless they want to. Look at Bob Jones U. Do you really think people want to waste time trying to get that school to be more diverse?

Public schools have a bigger obligation for serving their communities at large.
*Yes, it’s a generalization. No I don’t have a cite. It’s just a hunch.

83

Monstro:

Wow, I gotta say I’m really surprised you don’t consider yourself an AA supporter. I haven’t been on this board all that long, but I’ve seen dozens of your posts on AA and never once did I see you argue against it. Anyway, I certainly agree with you that anyone who thinks it’s a major catastrophy if they don’t get into their dream school needs a little perspective in their life.

December:

Not sure what you meant by the reference to Wellesley. Are you implying that minorities, by analogy, might get a better education if they went to a school w/o whites? If not, then what did you mean by the reference?

84

My intended point was that Howard and Wellesley have long been outstanding colleges, even though the Howard lacks racial diversity and Wellesley lacks sexual diversity. These two examples demonstrate that diversity is not necessary for a school to be of top quality.

85

I find Affirmative Action offensive, personally. It doesn’t help anyone to lower standards for a certain race/sex. I’d say that most white students, as I am one of them, don’t care about diversity. To me, college isn’t about diversity, it’s about learning. Now… if a student wants to learn about diversity and such, they can do so at a school that has more racial variation. Or has both sexes. But affirmative action is racist, and sexist. It’s unfair, and just wrong, really. I find it offensive as a female… and as a “white”. Technically, I have Native American blood in me, but I’m not the sort who uses it against others. And that’d be exactly what affirmative action is, using race, sex, against others to get a better advantage. If you want to increase diversity, that’s fine. But don’t do it by being unfair. Racism, and sexism, regardless of how it’s installed, fosters hate and resentment, and that’s the whole idea, to STOP hate and resentment. If you want equality, it has to be actually equal. Aka, everyone meets the same standards.

86

It improves the quality of education for the people who get in because of it, obviously. Do people really argue that diversity qua diversity increases education? That seems absolutely silly.

87

If someone doesn’t meet the standards of the school, they shouldn’t get in. Period. Race shouldn’t be an issue unless it’s a standard of the school.

88

So white people wanting an education “have to” associate with and learn about other races and cultures, but not vice versa? Scholarships are not the same as AA programs and quotas. An acquaintance said to me “What they [pro-AA people] are saying is that whites are more intelligent than blacks.” Now, this acquaintance doesn’t believe that, but thinks AA programs foster that impression.
I think diversity is a good thing, but not by discriminating against another group.

89

I agree.

90

Do you think segregation is a bad thing?

91

Depends on what you mean by “segregation.” Official or legislated segregation, of course not. But you know as well as I that, socially, the races tend to segregate themselves. (For the record, I live in a very diverse neighborhood – Asians, Hispanics, blacks – and prefer it that way.) But this is a free country and people can socialize with whomever they want and that’s as it should be. I think it’s understandable that there will be resentment when forced integration results in the discrimination of another group.

92

But it is ok when unforced segregation does?

93

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Racial discrimination that results in harm being done to ANY race or ethnic group is wrong. Are you saying that because white people have harmed other races because of their race, it’s okay to do the same to whites? I don’t claim to have an answer for increasing diversity without preferential treatment. The OP asked if diversity is a good thing. I agree it IS a good thing. I don’t agree that giving preference to any one group at the expense of another is the way to achieve it and I understand why it causes resentment.

94

Actually, the Dept. of Health and Human Services recognizes that even urban areas can be medically underserved, as defined by criteria which are rather more complex than a simple ratio of physicians to inhabitants. Links:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/shortage/

http://www.texascancercouncil.org/impact/primary.html

Here is where you can check what the shortage areas are, by various criteria (subcategory of care, urban/rural, etc.)

Here is the list of facilities in urban medically underserved areas for primary care physicians, for Illinois alone. If you know Chicago, you will see from the list that we seem to have a problem attracting physicians to work in low-income neighborhoods, particularly in public hospitals and clinics, social service agencies, and correctional facilities. The Metropolitan Correctional Center, for example, is 2 blocks from my office in downtown Chicago, but seems to have a problem attracting and/or retaining primary care physicians. You’d also see that a number of the neighborhoods involved are primarily Latino and/or African-American (Pilsen, Jackson Park, and Lawndale, for example).

CLINTON
CENTRALIA CORR CTR
COOK
PEDIATRIC FOLLOW-UP CLINIC
INGALLS COMMUNITY CARE CTR
CHILDREN’S PRIMARY CARE SERV
WESTSIDE FAMILY HEALTH CTR
LAWNDALE PLAZA MEDICAL CTR
PRISM MED CENTER(N.TALMAN ST)
LOWER WEST NEIGHBORHOOD HLTH CTR
WINFIELD MOODY HEALTH CTR
ST.JAMES HOSP COMM HLTH CTR-SOUTH
WEST TOWN NEIGHBORHOOD HLTH CTR
KOMED/HOLMAN HEALTH CENTER
ALIVIO MED CENTER (W. 21ST STREET)
MILE SQUARE HEALTH CENTER
CICERO HEALTH CENTER
COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTER
JACKSON PK HOSP - SENIOR HEALTH CLINIC
JACKSON PARK HOSP - FAMILY HEALTH CENTER
JACKSON PARK HOSP - FRIEDELL CLINIC
ROBBINS HEALTH CTR
MIDWEST PHYSICIAN GROUP BRIDGEPORT
SOUTHWEST FAMILY HEALTH CENTER
IDEAL FAMILY HEALTH CENTER
SOUTH STATE FAMILY HEALTH CENTER
FANTUS OUTPT CLINIC - COOK CO HOSP
COOK CO CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION
MET CORR CTR - CHICAGO
INFANT WELFARE SOCIETY
PCC COMMUNITY WELLNESS CTR
ALIVIO MED CTR (SO. WESTERN AVE)
ERIE FAMILY HC (HUMBOLDT PARK)
ERIE FAMILY HC (WEST TOWN)
ERIE FAMILY HC (TEENS)
PEDIATRIC CLINIC - U OF IL
NEAR SOUTH HEALTH CTR
WOODLAWN HEALTH CTR
LINCOLN MEMORIAL HEALTH
COOK CO (SENGSTACKE)
LAWNDALE CHRISTIAN HLTH CTR
ALTGELD HEALTH CTR
FRIEND FAMILY HEALTH CTR
WEST SIDE HEALTH CTR
MARKHAM MEDICAL CLINIC
PILSEN MED CTR
SINAI DOCTORS MED CTR
HAWTHORNE WORKS MED CTR
KEDZIE PLAZA MED CTR
KLING PROF OFFICE BLDG
LAKE
LCHD - NE SATELLITE ZION CLINIC

As for ability to communicate with minority populations: well, you may find a few non-Hispanic doctors who speak Spanish, but how many non-Vietnamese doctors are there who speak Vietnamese? How many non-native speakers are fluent enough to perform proper diagnosis and explain complex treatment options? And even speaking the patient’s language doesn’t mean a doctor will pick up on the differences in communication techniques, cultural taboos, and body language that will allow him/her to serve the needs of a particular ethnic community effectively.

There is even a provision in the immigration laws for foreign physicians who have undergone training or completed a residency in the U.S. while on a J-1 visa, many of whom would normally be required by law to return to their home countries for a minimum of 2 years before returning to the U.S. in most visa classifications, to get a waiver if they practice for a minimum period of five years in a medically underserved area. So if we’re even giving foreigners special treatment, why shouldn’t we give our own minority populations the first crack?

95

Eva:

You are making the HUGELY ERRONEOUS and somewhat racist assumption that someone with an Hispanic surname will speak Spanish. I have MANY friends who are Hispanic and don’t speak a lick of the language.

Again, if you want foreign language speaking students, recruit for it. Even someone named Ngyuen might not speak Vietnamese-- you’d have to screen for it anyway. And, I don’t think you see Vietnamese getting AA (Asians are "over represented minorities at most universities).

It’s very simple. If you need a certain skill, recruit for that skill. Don’t use it as an excuse to give racial preferences. It only makes non AA supporteres even more suspicious.

96

With respect to the former - the question wasn’t minority viewpoints, but ethnic diversity. And there is a social interest in a more ethnically diverse population of physicians. As Eva Luna has so capably pointed out, there is an officially recognized shortage of physicians in a number of ethnic communities, including African-American and Latino communities, and physicians from those groups may well be suited to servicing those communities. Furthermore, even december, clearly no fan of affirmative action, appears to recognize that there is some value in providing professional role models for young people of different ethnic backgrounds to emulate.

And as far as your ad absurdem example, what are the chances, realistically speaking, that a kid with a zero SAT (or technically 400, since I think that’s the lowest you can get on the test if you actually take it) is either a) going to be applying to U-M, b) going to be applying to college at all, or c) going to have such stellar credentials in all other respects that the only factor distinguishing them from the white potential applicant with the perfect SAT is race? Critics of affirmative action often make it sound like, to quote monstro, the “knuckle-dragging” African-American and Latino students are getting into these elite schools over the backs of genius white students just because of their race. The actual differences are more likely to be smaller and subtler. I don’t think Michigan is admitting anyone with absurdly low SAT scores (except perhaps for athletes, who have their own minimum to qualify to play set by the NCAA, IIRC) over white kids with perfect or near-perfect scores. The differences are more subtle than that.

97

A subtle difference is still a difference. Racism is still racism, sexism is still sexism, regardless of how small the slight.

98

You are cracking me up. I am not Hispanic, and I have an degree, with honors, in Spanish, and served as a court interpreter for several years in U.S. Immigration Court. Meanwhile, my ex-boyfriend, the nice Mexican boy, doesn’t speak a darn word of Spanish that doesn’t relate to auto parts, and even those he learned on the job in an auto parts store. So no, I’m not a racist, and I’m certainly not anti-Hispanic.

I’m not at all making the assumption that all people with Hispanic surnames speak Spanish. I am, however, making the assumption that Hispanics are more likely than non-Hispanics to speak Spanish, and that even if they don’t speak Spanish, they may be more sensitive to the particularly Hispanic cultural issues of their Hispanic patients. From there I am taking the logical leap that perhaps these skills might make them more effective in serving Hispanic communities.

99

Eva:

One of my best buddies is Hispanic by decent, but doesn’t speak a word. In fact we call him the “World’s worst Hispanic”. It can create some pretty funny situations, as many of us (gringos) do speak passable Espanol.

But, I still say the idea that there is a need for “Hispanic” doctors is the shakiest of reasons for Hispanic AA. First of all, the term Hispanic is so nebulous as to be almost meaningless. Puerto Rican, Dominican, Mexican, Columbian, etc, etc, etc. I’m not going to repeat my arguments about language. You simply have not refuted them. And finally, equating the “Hispanic” experience in the US with the Black experience is simply ridiculous.

100

Nope.

Unfortunately it is a question that needs answering, however.

I can see why it might cause resentment. I don’t think that resentment is actually based on a holistic understanding of the dilemma involved. Diversity won’t happen on its own. Segregation is not a good thing. We have an answer.