Does every player have to get into the All Star Game?

Great Debates
1

OK, after my rant here, and other rants here, here, and here, I’ve had some time to think about last night’s All-Star Game.

Given the fact that they were in the 11th inning and on thier last pitchers, and given the fact that you don’t want to deprive a team of a start from one of it’s All-Star starters, they probably had no choice but to call the game.

However, I’m now questioning the premise that the manager must try to get every player into the game.

Just being selected to the ASG is a big honor, even if you don’t play. True, it would be “nice” if everyone got to play, but, just like in the real world, it doesn’t always work out that way. If each team carries 10 pitchers, they could easily have the first seven pitchers go 2-2-1-1-1-1-1 inning each, accounting for nine innings and leaving three pitchers for extra innings, ensuring that what happened last night doesn’t happen again.

I’ve heard suggestions about expanding the rosters and having a “taxi squad” of players who would only be available if the game went into extra innings. There are two problems with this: 1) In reality, with 30 players, you don’t need a “taxi squad.” If you can’t play 15 innings with 30 players, then there’s something wrong. 2) How long will it be before managers try to get the “taxi squad” guys in too.

Back in the first ASG, in 1933, the ASG meant something. Connie Mack, the AL manager that year, wanted to beat the NL. As a result Hall of Famers Jimmie Foxx, Tony Lazzeri (we can argue over Lazzeri’s credentials another time) and Bill Dickey rode the pine all day. I’m not suggesting that we go to that extreme, but the notion that every player has to get into the game, escpecially given what happened last night, has got to be dropped.

Zev Steinhardt

2

Bud Selig is taking all kinds of heat, predictably, but what else was he supposed to do?

I suppose we could come up with solutions to this pressing, serious “problem,” but really, what for? First, this “problem” will amost certainly never happen again. And second, the All-Star game is a meaningless exhibition game that’s played solely for FUN! It’s nothing more than a chance for fans to see their favorite players put on a show.

So, do I feel sorry for the fans? Were they somehow cheated or deprived? I don’t see how. They paid to see stars, and they saw them. They saw Barry Bonds hit a homer, they saw some nice plays in the field… all in all, I’d say they got their money’s worth in entertainment.

So forget it, and move on.

3

**

I agreed and conceeded that once they were at that point, they really had no choice but to call it.

**

Are you kidding? Do you think this is the first time the ASG has ever gone more than 10 innings? Sure it can happen again, and if they keep putting everyone in the game (leaving only one pitcher behind for extra innings), then the problem will surely come up again.

**

I’d say from the reaction of fans across the country this morning that you are wrong.

**

Because when you see an athletic competition, even an exhibition, you want to see a winner (and a loser, too). That’s the nature of sports.
**
[/QUOTE]

Zev Steinhardt

4

What about hockey and soccer?

I don’t have a problem with what happened last night. It’s an exhibition game. It doesn’t matter who wins and who loses. It’s about seeing your favorite stars play. I’d rather the game end in a tie than not be able to see the one player from my team have to ride the pine all game.

For instance, Zito just faced one batter because he’s a young pitcher and pitching more might have affected his next start. But he was selected and deserved to go, so he got to go and pitch.

I have no problem with what happened last night. Selig made the right decision and the managers made the right decision to play everyone.

5

**

IMHO, that is a defect in those sports. :slight_smile: In any event, in those sports, for whatever reason, a tie is acceptable. In baseball, a tie has never been acceptable.

Seriously, however, do you have fans going to a hockey game rooting for a tie?

**

Well, judging from the fan reaction today, I’d say that the fans do care and at least want to see someone win.

But if that’s the case, then you’re condeming all ASGs to no more than 11 innings. If the managers are going to a) hold only one pitcher back for extra innings and b) not use any pitcher more than two innings (which I don’t think is a bad idea) then you can never have a longer game than 11 innings. That is a bad idea.

Zev Steinhardt

6

Those same fans would likely be the same ones that would be bitching if their favorite player didn’t get in the game. And they would certainly be screaming murder if some pitcher got hurt pitching over time. PLUS the people who were satisfied aren’t the ones writing in. Only the people furious about it are. Same with any other topic.

Why? Seriously, what is so bad about not having a game longer than 11 innings?

7

**

But at least there’s precedent for players not getting into the game. Happens almost every all star game, and no big deal is made about it.

**

What? If he was injured pitching his fourth or fifth inning, I’d agree with you. But they won’t be screaming if he was injured on his first pitch just because it was in the the 12th inning instead of the 6th.

Because people like to see things to a conclusion. This was not a proper conclusion to a baseball game. A proper conclusion to a baseball game is to have a winner. If it were rained out, etc., then there would be no compaints. But that’s not what happened her. The game was artifically ended, when, if managed better, it wouldn’t have to have been.

Zev Steinhardt

8

Hey, I agree with both of you… I don’t see why a tie in a meaningless exhibition game is a big deal, but honestly, while I wouldn’t want to see a pitcher left out there for 60 or 70 pitches, I don’t see why Zito, for example, can’t throw a bit more than 3. It makes sense to me to say that if the game goes to extra innings, players who have been taken out can be put back in. That way, if the game goes only 9 innings as usual, the managers can try to get all the players in, and if it goes to extra innings, they won’t have to call it so soon.

I understand that the managers decided that putting pitchers in who’d gone in, thrown a few pitches, and cooled back down would be dangerous, but seriously, how dangerous would it have been for Zito to go back in?

9

In the past when players haven’t played in an All-Star game, they have complained. Especially position players.

Would you want to spend 3 days in Milwaukee and just sit around on the bench? No, you want to get out on the field.

As for a tie, who cares? Ulimately, it’s an exhibition game. Many spring training games end in ties for the very same reason that the ASG did, i.e. teams not having enough pitchers available.

And why do American sports fans have such a hard time with ties? Just learn to live it with and move on. By Thursday, REAL baseball will be played again. That should keep everybody happy for a while.

10

He had just thrown nearly 8 innings two nights before the All-Star Game (7 2/3 on July 7, to be exact) and 104 pitches. How much more would you have him throw? Especially given that he’s young and he is one of the most crucial players on the A’s. Torre made the right decision. Zito shouldn’t have thrown much more than he did. He almost didn’t make the All-Star squad because Torre didn’t want to be responsible for possibly injuring his arm. But everyone had a fit and said Torre just didn’t want to pick stars from other teams so he could pick more Yankees and that he should just pick Zito and either not have him pitch or all, or just face one batter. So that’s what he did. It was absolutely the correct decision. He’s not Torre’s player so Torre shouldn’t take risks with his arm, especially an arm that is the key to a team in the pennant race.

11

Yeah, I found out about this AFTER I posted. Given that, Torre did right by him and I’m a moron. Like I said, I haven’t followed this at all closely, because I find the entire thing fairly pointless. I’m not quite sure why Zito accepted the invitation, knowing he had that Sunday start, except that it’s a bigger honor to participate in the game than it is to be asked to participate in the game.

12

I didn’t see the game, but please LIGHTEN UP!

Bud Selig is generally a clueless idiot, but in this case he and the managers were correct.

The Major League All-Star game is just an exihibition game, the result does not count in the standings. There is no reason that baseball should needlessly risk injury to pitchers in a game whose outcome is utterly meaningless.

As far as the fans not getting their money’s worth, actually they got 2 extra innings of exhibition play.

I would like MLB take Whitey Herzog’s suggestion. Pick 9 pitchers for each team, and play 9 innings. Each pitcher goes 1 inning, if the game is tied after 9 innings, so what? The fans still get to see the best pitchers face the best hitters.

13

Everyone must get a chance to play.

Otherwise, it might harm their sense of self-esteem.

14

Zev,

MANY games in spring training don’t have a winner, and no one screeches or bleats about it. Know why?

THEY ARE EXHIBITION GAMES.

Just like the All-Star game.

It is beyond pointless and meaningless.

And watching PTI today, I believe it was Bob Ryan, who made a VERY good point: /paraphrase/ These days many players don’t care about the game, and don’t really care if they play or not.

Thanks to ESPN, the whole All-Star Experience has been blown WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t even watch. There was an HOUR long All-Star Selection show that was the most boring and pointless thing I’ve seen on ESPN in a LONG time.

Oh yeah, I recall when Albert Belle was elected to the game the year that he had signed with Chicago. The game was played in Cleveland, so you can imagine the “warm” welcome he was givne by the Cleveland faithful. Belle didn’t play AT ALL and was castigated by the media for doings. Yet this year both Pedro Martinez & Randy Johnson skip the game and no one says dick.

Talk about a double fucking standard.

15

Yeah, but the fans wanted some players to get to play twice.:smiley:

16

**

True. But you can’t equate the two. ST games aren’t broadcast nationaly. ST games aren’t a showcase for the game. Very few people (if anyone) cares about the outcome of a ST game.

None of that applies to the ASG. True, it is an exhibition, but it’s a very, very important exhibition. The fact that people care about the outcome means that baseball should have been good enough to provide one.

Again. I think that Selig made the right choice to call the game. However, that’s only true once both managers ran through all thier players. My contention in this thread is that Torre and Brenly should not have done that to begin with and that future managers shouldn’t.

**

That maybe true, but because the fans care, the players should as well.

Agreed. I think that if you are elected/selected, you should go, even if you can’t play.

Zev Steinhardt

17

You might be singing a different tune if you’d ponied up $175 to see the damned thing.

IMHO, a lot of folks in this thread and elsewhere are demonstrating that they’re missing the point with the standard cliche, “It’s just an exhibition game, like in Spring Training, and they have ties then too!”

Well, no, guys, it ISN’T just like spring training. In fact, it’s nothing like spring training. It’s an exhibition game, but a very different one. Spring training games are for the specific purpose of warming players up and trying out youngsters; it’s acknowledged that they serve a developmental purpose and that the outcome of the games is irrelevant. That’s why they play split squad games.

The All Star game is NOT for developmental purposes and never has been. It is an exhibition game in the true sense of the word; it is supposed to be an actual sporting contest. The game has always been supposed to be a complete contest with a winner and loser, whereas spring training games ending in ties have a long precedent.

The All-Star game is very obviously not meaningless, because MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE ANGRY ABOUT IT! The measurement of a game’s “meaningfulness” is whether or not people are interested in the outcome - what other meaningful measurement is there? People are obviously interested in the outcome of the All-Star game, as evidenced by the fact that I and million of other baseball fans are pissed off at what happened. The very existence of hordes of angry fans is itself proof the game means something at some level. Spring training games are next to meaningless because next to nobody cares about the results.

I believe the decision to call the game was disgraceful and demonstrates Selig’s idiocy and lack of scruples.

18

Well, as I said before, I agree with Selig’s decision at the point he had to make it. You don’t want to cause injury to players in the ASG. I just think that if the game were better managed as a game (and not as a “get everyone in” contest) then Selig would never have been forced to make the decision he did.

My contention in this thread is to challange the notion that everyone must play. As I said earlier, you could easily have seven pitchers go nine innings and have enough pitchers even if the game should go 15.

Zev Steinhardt

19

But the fans DON’T care about the outcome. Seriously. You ask any those fans booing who won last year’s game, I bet 99% have no idea.

Quick. Without looking, who won the last ten All-Star games? Now, without looking, who won the last ten World Series?

I can do World Series no problem. I can’t tell you who won the All-Star game. No one remembers it. No one actually cared about the outcome…they just had a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the game called “early” when in fact, they had just been given two extra innings of game-time.

ST and the All-Star game equate perfectly. Neither one matters in the standings. The World Series is still the flagship event. For instance, last year’s All-Star game drew an 11.0. Game 2 of the World Series drew 15.0 and Game 7 drew a whopping 23.5. And the World Series is what the TRUE fans really care about. When the World Series ends in a tie, feel free to rant away. But when what you have a spruced up spring training game that doesn’t even serve the purpose of getting the players back into a groove, and can, in fact, hurt their performance in the second half (especially pitchers, ala Pedro) I say be glad you got to go, be delighted you got two extra innings of superb play, and stop bitching about the outcome of an unimportant game.

Go Angels!!!

20

As I said before if Chad Lowe got back in and blows out his knee like Kevin Nash the wrestler did on Monday, Massachusetts and New York would be in a civil war.