Does Evil Really Exist? I say...nope.

Great Debates
41

Agreed, and that to me is the main issue. I agree that the “absence of” definition leaves much to be desired, but I don’t see it as logically incorrect.

I don’t follow your argument here.
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Well, if we don’t define good as the absence of evil, or vice versa, then we give them independant definitions which are opposites in a different sense than absolute quantity (presence).
I map “good” and “evil” onto those definitions above. Heat nor cold are specific enough to make a proclamation, but we can take a quantity of cold, or heat and show that that is good or evil by that definition. Logically. Semantically, we would find a problem with the statement “100degK is evil because it destroys human life.” But, when the bounds of temperature have been defined as to what destroys or fosters human life it is logically correct.

The issue is that good and evil preclude a willed act, a consciousness; someone who applied the heat to another person. It is the person that is evil under normal interpretation of responsibility. For those “love the sinner hate the sin” it is not the person who is evil, nor the heat, but the act itself. Inconveniently that distinction is not noted in the definition of “good” or “evil”.

It is not an issue, to me, of whether or not a distinction is logical, but whether one will accept that as meaningful or correct with the intuitive grasp of evil or good. Abstract terms always seem to evade this logical distinction.

42

Well, as I noted, you can make it logically correct if you define the neutral state of “absence of good” as the very worst evil possible. However, since I’ve never seen anyone do that, and even those who argue the cold==evil analogy don’t appear to genuinely believe that simply lacking good is sufficent for a thing to be the vilest evil, their logic is inconsistent. So the analogy needn’t necessarily be illogical, but as I have seen it used it usually is.

I agree. I can’t see that, say, a birth defect is evil–it just is. It’s bad, not evil. Now, if you believe in Satan and think he did it–yes, then it would be evil, since a consciousness willed the “bad” act.

43

I should have clarified with examples.

Dahmer, Manson, Swango, Bundy, Gein, Starkweather, Bernardo, McVeigh, Ramirez, Speck, Lucas, Gacy, Fish, Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Resendez, Ng and Lake, etc.

I am certain that each and every one of those listed above falls into one (or more) of the categories I listed (derangement caused from environmental background, genetics, mental illness, or other reasons not determined). Are you saying that these people are not evil? That they would not be evil if there was not good to balance out the equation? That their acts are necessary for us realize goodness? That they are merely parts to be played, and somebody has to play each role or there is no story?

Do you not believe that there is a logical explanation that evilness is caused by something mental, genetic, physical or environmental without some new age, spiritualistic, Zen-like explanation? There are some societies (most notably tribal societies) in which there is little or no crime/violence (an island off of Africa is one - someone help me out here - I am drawing a blank on the name). Are you implying that these societies would be better balanced if violence was introduced?

Forgive me for feeling like this debate has taken on the features of those late night, acid tripping, pot dripping conversations that although seemed deep and profound at the time really didn’t make a lot of sense the next day when we sobered up.

Are you implying that the victims of the murders I listed above are somehow responsible for choosing their fate??? The 6 millions Jews chose to be slaughtered? The 8 nurses murdered by Speck chose to be repeatedly stabbed? The little boys Gacy tortured and buried in his yard are somehow responsible for their own death?

A small sampling (I can continue if you’re interested).

Aileen Wournos
Karla Homolka
Judith Neelly
Nanny Doss
Diane Downs
Charlene Carlo
Susan Smith

You got a point! :slight_smile:

44

So, you agree evil is entirely a product of perception. And, yet, evil doesn’t exist.

Then, you also must be saying perception isn’t reality.

But, yet, you say the following:

You’ve just contradicted yourself by agreeing evil exists here on earth. What else matters to me if my baby is boiled? (Geesh, I can’t believe I’m arguing this.) And, if I am an atheist being boiled in oil, and there’s nothing there for me after death, how can you argue I’ve had no evil done to me through this horribly painful loss of life?

45

You people really want to know if evil is out there?
Come and stay at my house for a week. That is all it will take for you to see the evil that I have to look at everyday.
I am talking about my father-in-law. The mere sight of him turns my stomach.
This is a man who used to beat his kids with a belt buckle and were talking the big rodeo type. He hooked his son up to a car battery when he caught him smoking. I think he was 12 at the time.
Now, I live in his home with my kids, and he is mean and evil.
We rent the upstairs of the house, but we share a common kitchen. Well, the kids have to walk through his living room in front of his precious tv to get to the stairs to go up stairs. My kids are only allowed downstairs for meals, and he is always yelling cussing, and threatening them.
When I was pregnant with my youngest he told my brother-in-law that if Scott didn’t put me in my place he was going to beat me down and put me in the hospital to show me what a woman should act like. For cripes sake, I was carring his grandchild at the time!!!
He raised his hand to my son once and only once, and I told him if he did it again I would take him down like nothing flat.
He hates all of his grandchildren, and calls them terrible nasty names, and swears they are all out to get him.
He is vile, he is filthy, and he is mean and old.
My mother always told me that you don’t hate people, you hate the things they do.
I have never hated anyone in my life. Like I said, this man turns my stomach.
He walks all crippled up except for when it is to RUN across the room to kick the dog. We had to get rid of a dog because of him. It was a beautiful dog, and my husband built her a really nice dog house, but she wouldn’t go in it for some reason. So, Mr. evil reincarnate decided that he would beat the shit out of the dog with his cane and that would teach it to go in the dog house. The dog practically shit itself whenever it saw the dog house from then on.
Do I believe in evil? Yes, I do. I live with him. And yes, hell is hot! He keeps the heat at 80 degrees since he is sick and always cold from lack of circulation. Thank goddess I don’t pay the gas bill.
You ask why we stay. That is another long shitty story of my life.
There are many more stories I could tell you about this man, but I wouldn’t want to ruin your day any further.

46

Kricket - You say that there is a good reason why you don’t move out, I believe you, but since you are stuck there aren’t there things you can do to make his miserable life a living hell?

Make him some “special” brownies or hot cocoa spiked with chocolate Ex-Lax. Clean the toilet with his toothbrush. Slobber in his oatmeal. Nair in his shampoo bottle. Rubbing alcohol in his Visine. Little things like that where you can just sit back and smile prettily without him having a clue as to what you are up to.

If you want to get down right evil yourself, there is always arsenic in his coffee and well placed toys at the top of a step stairwell.

47

Make that STEEP stairwell, preferably concrete.

48

Good lord, Kricket, I can’t believe your children have to live in this situation. I don’t know the circumstances, but this is just horrendous.

I’m going to share a story with you in the hopes it will somehow inspire you to move under any possible means.

A little over a year ago, my wife and I moved to my hometown because I found a new, higher-paying job nearby. My wife talked me into living at my Mom’s house until we saved some money. Well, long-story-short, we didn’t save any money because my younger brother, who still lived there, is a mooch and we were expected to pay for all the food that came in the house, and my wife was expected to cook it. My wife got pregnant, which was good news, but that changed things. Mom eventually went nutzoid on us. For example, my wife would become ill from the smell of most cooking food (pregnancy related), but my Mom got mad that my wife stopped cooking for her. My Mom made us feel so horrible all the time that my wife’s blood pressure skyrocketed. Yet, we didn’t have enough money for moving expenses and rental deposit. There was nobody else we could live with.

I decided that there was no choice but to move. In my mind, I knew I had to get out. A friend had an idea: Refinance our car and use the equity for a loan. We did it, and we got out. My wife’s blood pressure, which was dangerously high at Mom’s, came down a day after the move. We are still financially strapped, but you can’t measure the value of our improved mental health. FTR, it cost us a few more bucks a month, and it extended our car payments for two years. Worth every dime and more.

I don’t know if this example will help or not. Either way, good luck. I feel for you.

And, oh yeah, I think you’ve added another good argument as to the all-too-real presence of evil.

49

kricket… gaaaa. :frowning:

Put me down as arguing on the ‘yes’ side. Indeed there is evil.

What I fail to comprehend (according to my way of thinking) is how issues of good/evil inevitably get caught up with the god thing.

Evil exists, but it is a human creation. Nature is deadly; harsh and cruel even, but not evil. In the beginning, we have this great little blue ball floating happily in space. No evil. Then, man comes along and next thing you know we have devils and anti-christs and Hitlers and all this crap.

So ya, there is evil.

But don’t blame God.

(particularily if there isn’t one, as then you would be most embarassed)

50

There is no Good or Evil, just a universe sloshing back and forth until it settles back on it’s own level, like a bucket of water after you’ve moved it around. The Tao is The Tao is The Tao, there is no “Good” Tao or “Bad” Tao, it just is. (Tao incidently means Way, roughly)

51

Kricket:
by the accepted definition of evil, I would say that you are evil for putting in children in that situation. My wife works with “special ed” kids who all have bad homelifes. We often debate on the relationship between a good home and being a special ed kid. All the parents have excuses why their home is the way it is. But they don’t understand the effect on the children. I would do whatever it takes to remove the children from such an environment.

52

you need to clarify if you are talking about behavior disorder children or mentally challanged children.
As for me being evil, if you are going to look at it that we are all a bit evil from some of the things we do or think.
You are evil since you judged, tried, and convicted me without even letting me have a chance to get back and explain why I am where I am in my life.
If you read a few of the post after mine they state that they have no idea why, and have asked me why.
Some people cannot help the situations they are in. Like where I live. I am not giving you the whole sob story of my crappy life, but if you look up my user name and read what I have posted here there and everywhere you will be able to put together my life story.
I will just say that we live here due to circumstances out of our control, and haven’t been able to get out.
So, people like you and your wife would take my kids from me because we fell on hard times? That’s being a compasionate human being!
My kids are around that man for around two hours every day. And I do not let things slide. When I see my kids are troubled I talk to them, and I LISTEN to them and we fix things working together to the best of our ability.
So yeah, I’m a shitty parent for working around our little household disability.
There are many parents out there who have no clue as to what their child is going through, or thinking. I do.

53

So you’re saying we should sheild children form all “bad” influances? how is the child suposed to develope a sence of right and wrong that way? Think about it, i know i don’t want to be like a Great Uncle of mine because i saw how he treated my Great Aunt. If the childs parents have done the job they ought to the child will recognise that this behaviour is not acceptable and take it as a warning of how not to act.

54

Blasted spelling… why couldn’t i have lived in 500 years ago when even BAD spelling was impressive.

55

I don’t see why the answer has to be “yes” if you are an Atheist.
Anyway “evil” is word. It is a word that humans have made up to catagorize and condemn certain behaviors and thoughts that occur.
That’s it.

56

I would add that some people believe it is some kind of metaphysical force. OK, now that’s it.

57

Kricket,
I don’t know your personal situation. I was talking about the definition of evil. putting kids in such a situation could be defined as evil. Now if we want to get into the reasons… I am sure you are doing your best. But should the concern be for your feelings or the kids? Thats a tough one. In a perfect world everyone would be happy. I learned long ago not to try to make everyone happy all the time. I do feel the kids should be the overriding factor of any actions by a society. but the worlds not perfect. I am not trying to be harse to you personally. I pray and hope you get the best out of your particular situation. Trust in God and you will be rewarded.

by the way, “special ed” in texas is for kids who dont perform up to their potential because of emotional problems.

58

And that is what I was pointing out. That you don’t know everybodys situation, and to make judgement upon them to take away a thing most precious is not always a good thing.
Also, I am Wiccan, but I get what you were saying with the trust in God thing. But I also believe that you can’t put all your faith in the unknown. It is the things that people do in day to day life that decides where we go with a touch of devine intervention from time to time. Those Gods and Goddesses are busy people you know.
Around here we have two different classes for “special” kids, on for those who don’t conform to the norm of behavior, and those who are mentally or physically handicapped.
I am sure that it will put your mind at ease that my children are as well adjusted as any other child can be. It is not just home life that can mess up a child. Society as a whole does a well enough job in helping that along.

59

And, I’m certain Kricket will do what she can to move, too.

BTW, junstinh, you just said she’s evil, no matter how you put it in following posts. That’s more than a bit harsh, dude.

I think you owe her an apology, to be frank.

60

I just wanted to modify Polycarp’s thought a bit.

Let’s say it’s light(good) and dark(evil) just for the sake of that’s what came to my mind when reading these posts.

Now, can you give me dark? How do you make something more dark? How do you make something more cold? You have to take away the light/heat. You can’t have more dark. (Least that’s what my physic’s teacher said)
Now I don’t totally agree with that because that would imply that their are different levels of evil–which maybe true I’m not to sure how I stand on that. We can go all or none and say a sin is a sin and thus Hitler is as bad as a rapist.
Furthermore, if we look at choice.
I believe that God gave us free-will to make our own decisions. In order for us to have total freedom we had to have the ability to choose to go against Divinty. For if God made us only able to do good we wouldn’t be truly free. So why is their evil at all? It’s needed because sometimes evil acts are needed in order to achieve a greater-good.

If we look at the creation story we see that Eve had the choice whether or not to eat the apple. She choose to go against divinty–which is an evil act.
But again if you stray from Divinity does how far you stray determine how evil your act? Hitler strayed alot farther than a rapist IMO yet both acts were evil.

I think I’m going in circles.
Thankfully I believe we have forgivness so if you’re truly sorry for your sins, it’ll be all good and thus we wont have to worry about this too much.