err, “commomly held”.
In my opinion, the world is flat. Doesn’t make it an opinion worth expressing.
That would be another thread.
Did you answer the OP’s questions?
Why are you insulting me personally, Quicksilver? I didn’t think there was any animosity between us. I answered the OP honestly and to the best of my ability and you insist on continuing this needless hijack & hostility.
I apologize to the OP for even answering this hijack. I’m not going to answer it anymore, back to the OP.
Based on the OP, I took it to mean within the context of the larger idea of having or wanting to have a belief in the first place. It’s possible I misunderstood.
For example, “I’d have an easier time of finding faith in a higher being if the organized religious wrappings weren’t so off-putting.”
Not an attack on you personally. Personally, I don’t even know you. Nor do I harbour any ill thought towards you. But in the spirit of fighting ignorance and all… 
… you must admit, you were exercising some pretty extreme hyperbole there. No?
Plus, your attack on me (“idiot” ? :dubious: ) seems far more direct and personal.
It *was * an attack on me, and you can’t get out of it by saying I attacked you back. And as for knowing each other, as I recall, we did have a pretty fun time in the thread where you were picking out lingerie for everyone.
Whether *you think * (because in the end, that’s *your * opinion) I was exercising hyperbole or not is not the point. The OP asked what we feel about organized religion and why. I answered. This was not the place to go into graphic detail about why, and I won’t. I don’t even take part in those debates.
I’m disappointed in you, Quicksilver. If you had simply said what you needed to say without your needless sarcasm or the stupid rolleyes it would have been one thing. If you’d started a thread, “Anaamika, defend why you think organized religion is organized crime”, that would have been another. Instead, you chose to hijack someone else’s thread, and you continue to do so, with a petty sarcastic comment.
And I am still interested in Quicksilver’s response to the OP.
Sure it does.
I’ve got a born-again fundi uncle bent on self-destruction (IOW, converting muslims abroad); my natural grandmothers were proud Daughters of Isabel; a good-sized chunk of my in-laws’ extended relations are true Bible-thumping evangelists of the Missouri Synod variety, etc.
This means that for most family gatherings, especially around certain holidays, I’ve lived The Big Pseudo-Christian Lie to keep everybody else happy.
Atheist - no belief in a higher power, there is nothing about any organization that is “keeping me from believing.”
If I really believed, no organized religion could make me stop. Since I do not believe, no organized religion can keep me from believing - does that make sense?
Sorry there seem to have been a few personal attacks; hope that the discussion can continue without devolving.
As I was posting earlier (my second post), there was a discussion on my local NBC station about spirituality and medicine, and how prayers/meditation have made a difference in healing. Don’t know any specifics but think there have been studies of this.
Always having had spirituality as a part of my life, it’s hard for me to understand those who don’t have any spiritual beliefs; that’s why, I guess, my questions are worded the way they are. I apologize for that. And it really is a very personal thing; what works for one individual will not necessarily work for another. Guess I really need to read that book mentioned up thread! I’ve always been for religious tolerance, but in all the reviews I admittedly skimmed through it looks like the author took folks like me to task as well!
Hope this might clear things up a bit further.
Okay, but I may disappoint you…
I don’t find solace in faith because the entire idea of a higher power seems far fetched and unnecessary. There is enough mystery and wonder in the world as we (barely) know it to fill a multitude of lifetimes. But, it’s my opinion, that we’ve only got the one and it’s best spent maximizing one’s happiness without actively seeking to minimize someone else’s right to same. In other words, it’s not a zero sum game.
Since religion and religious organizations seem to beg addressing, I find them to be no different (no better/no worse) than any other human organizational enterprise. Religious groups, businesses and nations tend to exhibit some of the least attractive aspects of human characteristics. Mob mentality and drive to -conform (as well as make other do the same). These institutions draw lines that are almost arbitrarily drawn but at the same time are unavoidable - how else would you distinguish your group from another?
To summarize, I’m not much of a joiner and as cynical as I am about human institutions, I’m very optimistic about individual human contribution and the human will to survive, learn and excell.
To wit:
“…It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul”
- Invictus by w.e. henley
Agreed up to the atheism part. I don’t take it quite that far, as I do not discount the fact that there just might be a “Supreme Being” who is a practical joker par excellence and is laughing his/her/its ass off at us right now.
But from a logic point of view, you are right on target. Everything seems to point to humanity’s being here as nothing more than a fluke. The Higher Power is us.
Yes, and so far none of them have shown statistically significant results. But that is really a whole 'nother question, not suitable for discussion in this thread or this forum.
I just don’t understand this “belief” thing in the OP - if I don’t believe in a higher power, what do I believe in? Why on earth would I have to believe in anything? Do you believe in the chair you’re sitting in? You wouldn’t put it that way, would you? Because it’s self-evident, right? I believe in biology and astronomy and, yes, badgers, and also carpet and paint. I suppose you could call me a hard agnostic; if there should be a god, which I seriously doubt, its presence or absence shouldn’t affect my choices. I don’t need a reason to be an ethical person, if that’s what you’re asking.
But does it play a role in my life? Sure, my family is very religious in various ways and holidays can be uncomfortable. My dad seems to be under the longstanding impression that I don’t go to church because I’d have to wake up on Sunday mornings, and in the past there have been fights about it. In a thousand different ways living in modern America forces religion to play a role in my life, but it’s an unwanted role. I used to scratch the ceremonial deism off my money, but that was in college.
There is no reason for me being here. After all, if I wasn’t here, I wouldn’t know it. Being here is the only way I can be.
However, as long as I am here, I believe I will be nice to be nice to other people, and enjoy myself, except when people perpetuate beliefs I think are harmful, in which case I will question them about their reasons.
Why is it your decision as to what beliefs are harmful? I’m an athiest as well, but this type of arrogance irks me.
It’s hard, sometimes. Feels like there’s nobody out there watching over us and we’re just insignificant little bugs waiting to be squashed. A part of me has always wondered about religion (not necessarily in a negative way), and at one point in my life I was almost ready to believe. Then I attended church with a friend and that forever changed my perspective. Holy crap, it was like a cult. The people inside must’ve felt driven by some Higher Power, but to an outsider, it just looked like they were insane. Swaying left and right, eyes closed, and singing in ecstasy. They seriously seemed possessed (and they would probably agree, just not in the “bad” way). I had to walk out halfway through because the activities freaked me out so much.
How do we go through life without a god-belief? Well, I still believe in the human race, with all its ups and downs. I believe that, for the most part, we alone are responsible for our destiny, and it’s up to us to change anything we want to see changed. We don’t need to delegate responsibility to unseen powers. Quality of life has been improving over the last couple hundred of years, and if we can keep it up, perhaps one day soon we’ll see the end of poverty and such. This – our potential – is the upside.
The down side is that, without belief in a deity, I also do not believe that people are inherently good. Or, for that matter, inherently evil. I think that people, for the most part, simply act in accordance to their desires, fears, and motivations. On larger scale, this seems to create an “us vs them” mentality everywhere, from the individual to the family unit to the town to the state to the country to the culture, etc. Anything “outside” your group is generally regarded as outsiders and given little concern unless they’re directly threatening “us”. Sure, there are exceptions – charitable organizations both religious and not – but they are not the norm. If we weren’t this selfish to begin with, we wouldn’t need “charity”. It’d just be a regular part of our lives.
So that is the downside. I believe that no matter how hard we try, there will always be problems simply because we’re human. As such, in the end, I’m always going to care about the people I love more than absolute strangers, and I’m going to accept that other people are going to do the same. But despite that, I think there is still much common ground to be found. If we can compromise a bit more – take a little here, give a little there – we’ll be ok.
As for the tragedies we cannot deal with – well, for one thing, technology has helped a lot (not without generating its own issues, unfortunately). As a whole, though, I think we’re getting more and more capable of dealing with nature’s wraths. But there will always be things that we’re powerless against, and that’s something we just have to accept. Of course, that’s easier said than done when it’s you or somebody you love that’s in trouble.
A lot of people call me arrogant. That doesn’t bother me. However, you asked so here is a partial list:
I start bitching when and if people state or do the following:
IOKIARDI=It’s O.K. If A Republican Does It. In other words, you can expect that if at a banquet, a democrat guest speaker makes political remarks from the speaker’s stand, he will be lectured for having done so, by various media outlets, for speaking in an inappropriate forum, but if a republican does the same, he will be praised. Also, the fact that documentaries produced by Michael Moore have a political viewpoint, instead of being “impartial, like a documentary should be”, and many, many violations of ethics.
People act like all historical figures were straight, and white.
People claim that kids can pray in school, when in fact, they can prey to their hearts content, unless the teacher start making it a group activity, or the kids harass the kid who doesn’t pray.
People state that we need to look to religion, in order to make peace between wars. True, some will repeat the mantra, "It wasn’t religion that caused the conflict, it was criminals misusing the religion to their own ends. I just roll my eyes to such a response, then if people start to lecture me on it, I lecture them on the issue, point for point.
Well, ‘faith’ does play a role in my life because most people are, including the vast majority of my friends and family.
Personally, though, I don’t believe in any of that. There’s no “reason”, and, like several people have already said, it’s not just annoying, but comes across as highly condescending when people assume that there’s a reason for that. We, generally, don’t ask religious people “Why do you believe that? What’s wrong with you that makes you religious?”. Please do the same for us.