Would a trained (swordless) fencer have any advantages in a fight over an average fit person?
In fitness maybe but martial ability, no.
As in modern sport fencing?
Well, he would have the advantage of likely being fit and having a knowledge and experience of what his body can and can’t do. Something you average couch potato would be missing, but something most athletes have in common.
Your OP says average fit person, however, so again, maybe, since there is a difference between being of average fitness and being an athlete.
But modern fencing does not teach any sort of martial art. Might as well ask if a marathon runner or a football player would have an advantage.
If you mean someone who studies historical martial arts, be they European medieval/renaissance or Asian, then the answer would be - hell yes.
I’d rather have a sword and no fencing skill, than have fencing skill and no sword. Just opinion, but I doubt there’s a factual answer to this question. In order to get one, we’d need a large random sample of fencers, a large random sample of non-fencers, a ring, a ref, and 3 judges.
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Seriously, this should be a TV show, maybe pitch it the history channel? They love stuff like that.
Fencing does teach you about skills that would conceivably help in a fight, even if not directly – the idea of tempo and how to lull your opponent into it before breaking it, the ability to look ahead in a contest and plot strategy, the idea of feinting and striking, and it gives you body training in stamina for such a contest.
It’s certainly not an ideal situation, but a fencer will have been in contests against an opponent and be used to it and know the sorts of things to look out for. That’s far better than being someone who’s never fought against someone else, and has no idea how to start or resolve a fight, aside from “swing your fists (or sword)”.
Though not a master by a looong stretch, I have a couple of years of fencing under my belt. I’ve also taken some traditional martial arts. Based on the fights I’ve witnessed in bars street fights are ugly, vicious affairs. There’s usually a short wind-milling phase, a bum rush then fight goes to the ground. Fights aren’t kata. I say no help at all.
not to mention faster reaction times due to fencing training.
Bruce Lee took some inspiration for his Jeet Kune Do from western fencing, like the stance, broken tempo, interception, and some of the mechanics of the straight lead. He was a great admirer of the world champion fencer Aldo Nadi and quoted his book “On Fencing” extensively in his writings. He was intentionally trying to apply fencing techniques among many others to his already considerable skill in unarmed combat, though, so it’s not quite the same question but worth mentioning.
Training in any martial art should give an advantage over someone without. Fencing may give better tuned reflexes and eye-hand coordination, doesn’t necessarily do anything for stamina unless you’re training in dramatic sword fighting. That system requires a castle, candelabra, and large draperies to be done right.
The same can be said for Akido which I have also studied and consider worthless in combat . I really like Bruce as a person and for his contribution to martial arts but it must be said he never matched his skills in MMA fighting. I’m not sure he competed in full contact fighting at all so impressive as his skills were, we have no way of knowing if the fencing aspect of JKD would work in a real world fight or not. I sure wish he would have lived long enough for the UFC.
JKD didn’t die with Bruce - I’ve trained with some JKD guys and they can bang full contact, and hard. Fencing was only a small portion of what Bruce put into the mix with JKD; much greater emphasis was placed on western boxing, particularly the punching techniques of Jack Dempsey. Besides, it’s not quite fair to compare Bruce to modern MMA fighters - It’s sort of like asking how Bronko Nagurski would play in a modern Super Bowl, or how Jesse Owens would rank in the 2012 Olympics. Bruce’s innovation and gift was to make martial arts training in the Western world as serious a pursuit as any other sports training, to divorce it from its pseudo-magical history and make it as real as boxing. He already realized the importance of Judo and wrestling, and had he lived would certainly have taken an interest in Muay Thai and ground fighting. He was very much a realist.
Slight alteration, what if the fencer in question was a “real” (Zorro) fencer? Would that make a diffirence? I’d think at the very least it would prepare you to fight someone, since I think people have a psycological aversion to fighting, at least till they’re in it.
This question came about after watching The Mark of Zorro-Basil Rathbone vs. Tyrone Power. Good stuff.
From what I’ve seen of fencing, they would be excellent at backing up quickly without falling over. But this is a skill you learn in marching band too.
Much better. By the 18th century fencing had become a skill tied to military calvary and a “gentlemanly” sport.
It wasn’t the overall hand to hand/weapons/sword/dagger/spear etc, etc martial art of the medieval/renaissance era, but wasn’t Zorro trained in a number of other martial arts too? Like wrestling and boxing?
And I would imagine anyone of that time period who had the resources to learn how to fence would have learned other things too.
Again, you need to go back to the Renaissance/Medieval period before “fencing” becomes a true martial art. Gun powder changed a lot in the west, and skill in hand to hand combat just wasn’t as important for self-defense as owning a gun.
It might help you use the jab. But a piste is not wide enough to practice moving angularly, which would be a major disadvantage.
I am assuming foil or epee here, which is the only forms I have any experience in.
Regards,
Shodan
Three years of fencing have done the following for me:
- Greatly improved balance and awareness of where my feet are.
- Improved my sense of distance between me and a potential threat.
- Improved reaction time and reflexes.
- Greatly improved overall strength, and right arm strength.
- Improved stamina.
Essentially, fencing has made me more fit and faster, and aware of where I am, where my potential opponent is, and how we related to each other. That sounds wishy-washy but yes, fencing has helped me greatly. Once any sort of match came to blows then I think the only possible thing which could help is greater fitness and the ability to dodge.
Train for 2 to 3 hours straight at a time in footwork drills and bladework, and hell yes your stamina increases. “Do advance-advance-lunge 100 times, then retreat-parry quarte-retreat-parry prime-riposte 200 times…” yeah, it adds up. When you can wring out your fencing jacket after every session, you’re getting a workout. It’s by no means like boxing or something, but it’s a serious workout.
Let me give an example of how fencing, with no other weight training, improved my strength.
Before I started fencing, I could not pick up a 40-pound sack of cat litter with both hands, and move it for more than 4 or 5 feet.
After 1 year of fencing, I was able to pick up a 40-pound sack with one hand, carry it across a garage, down a flight of steps, and across a basement, without feeling seriously strained. Big difference.
I agree with most of your points. I would contend though that modern KJD fighters do not use any fencing techniques. I applaud BL for giving it a fair trial.
Again I agree but that’s not a fair parse of what I said. He didn’t challenge himself against the other top discipline fighters of his day. I doubt that he could have beaten the top Muay Thai fighters of his day. He didn’t fight them so we will never know, but we are a bit far afield from the OP which is would fencing help in a fight. The fact that Lee considered integrated fencing into KJD does not make the case that it would.
I agree that he was a forward thinking fighter and he certainly strove to bring realism into the MA world and should be lauded for that.
You don’t consider smallsword duels et al of the 1700’s and 1800’s to be a real martial art? Angelo, for example, wasn’t just teaching bored gentlemen who wanted a workout. And what of St. Georges? He killed more than his share of men fencing.