No you’re not, you’re giving the Nigerian (or whatever) access to your bank account with the expectation of getting a return.
That’s where the comparison goes awry; if the beggar told you “If you gimme $5 now I’ll give you $20 in three hours”, then it would be the same.
I guess it’s the same if the “return” you are expecting is that the beggar does what you would want him to do with the money, like buy food or rent a P.O. box so they could have a shot at getting a job (with a place to receive mail). But that would indicate that you are giving them money as a way to control them. Maybe that is what some people who complain about giving money to beggars are thinking at the back of their minds: “I am paying you to not be homeless and you are betraying me by continuing to choose homelessness instead of running your life the way I would run it if it were mine”.
Not really. Complaining about where the money goes when you give it directly to a homeless person is like complaining about where the aid money goes when you give it to a non-descript poor African country. It’s not nit-picking, it’s trying to help someone properly versus deluding yourself into thinking you’re helping when you’re just enabling the status quo.
IMO you can stick your dignity where the sun don’t shine if you refuse help when you really need it. I am stubborn as hell but if I ever reach that level of destitution I’m going to ask for help.
So the distribution of aid should be controlled? By who?
I agree that more help is needed than just handing over a dollar or two. There are real societal issues that need to be addressed. There are real people who need to be lifted up and given a chance to get back on their feet.
But these things need to happen in addition to helping the person make it through this day. One does not exclude the other. But do you think the people who refrain from giving for whatever reason are actually making the effort to see the larger changes take place?
If the dollar or two you give to a homeless person really makes that big of a difference to you, then you may not be in the position financially or spiritually to be giving.
I hardly think a homeless person spending your dollar on a pint of Wild Irish Rose wine is the moral equivalent of a tinhorn depot feathering his nest at the expense of his people. :rolleyes:
My point (which was admittedly exaggerated, but which at least a couple of people seem to have understood) was not that giving $5 to a beggar is exactly like participating in a Nigerian 419 scam. Your money is your own, of course, and you are free to hoard it, give it away, or use it as “sanitary wipes.” Personally, though, I find it absurd and a bit irresponsible to cheerfully bankroll someone who’s likely scamming you, and everyone else they can con, and feel all tingly inside as though you’re doing society a favor.
Not to say there are not people in genuine need, and when I feel I’ve met one of those, I have no qualms about giving them money when I have it, whether or not they ask.
Maybe so! Or maybe they’re hallucinating and think the beggar is a change machine. Hard to tell what people think, but it sure is fun to speculate.
I can tell you what I think though, which is “if a complete stranger hits me up for the last few dollars he needs for a bus ticket back home to Cornpone, LA to see his wife and kids and I see him out there the next day and each subsequent day hitting strangers up for money with the same sob story, or some teenager wearing hundreds of dollars worth of athletic wear sidles up to me and can’t even be bothered to lower the volume on his blaring iPod when he mumbles a request for cash, or basically if I give any of the money I’ve earned by working to a stranger, freely, to help that person’s survival, and it’s used not for necessities but for lottery tickets, crack, games of Skee-Ball, Justin Timberlake CDs or similarly heinous contraband----yes, I’m going to be angry, and more reluctant to donate the next time.”
If that suggests control-freakery to you, then your definition is considerably wider than mine.
I have seen no evidence that it does. It merely prolongs the state of those that would seek help, and encourages those that do not seek to continue to do so. There are plenty of ways to get some scratch without begging - day labor, collecting cans, working under the table at a restaurant or construction site doing menial labor, etc.
How does encouraging someone to not seek real tangible help by giving them a reason to remain on the corner asking for more change help the giver? Giving to a shelter or homeless agency helps the giver - and the recipients.
And unfortunately, more that quite a few of those begging have their basic needs met - its the ‘luxury’ items like tobacco, beer, pot, crack, etc, that they need cash for.
It was one of the most difficult times of my life when I had to go into a shelter. And I got back on my feet without ever having to resort to begging, other than asking for a cig now and then, which I do even now (sometimes you dont have time to get to the store). I fell on hard times. And I discovered just how much ‘excess’ is already out there for those willing to accept it. Every shelter and social worker helping the homeless is funded through the excess of others - and that is the proper venue for it, not handing it out on the street.
Everyone who donates has a right to judge how that donation is spent. There is no obligation to make a donation in the first place. If they earn their money, they are free to spend it as they choose, the same as everyone else. If I ask my sister for a few bucks, she definitely has the right to ask why and judge if my reason is worthy.
Begging and homeless are not synonymous, though there is a large correlation. Denying dignity to beggars (which I don’t advocate - that is a personal choice) does not equal denying dignity to the homeless. I argue that giving money to a beggar is granting them less dignity than by holding them accountable to the same standards as the rest of society. If you want to preserve the dignity of the homeless, then treat them as a regular joe (or jane), and not pander to them. Offer them real assistance. If a co-worker came to you with a personal problem, would you just give them a few bucks to tide them over, or would you also help them find a permanent solution to their troubles, be they what they may.
If you want to give your excess directly to those asking for it, go right ahead. But I do not see any moral superiorty in your choice, but rather much foolishness. But it is not my perogative to prevent you from doing so. Local ordinances might, but thats another issue.
One often does exclude the other - people have only so much that they can give. And considering how many donations and contributions that agencies receive, I would say that most people do make the effort. Far more do give to the ‘office’ than the street. Giving a fiver out on the corner does nothing to make the larger changes take place. Giving a fiver to the United Way does. (To kick the horse a couple more times.)
No, I’m implying that a homeless person trying to get a job would have valid use for the money, did you read the story? It’s autobiographical, I’ve been there.
That may possibly be…for future reference, where do I find them? Just in case something goes badly wrong in my life and I end up in that situation again? I wasn’t aware of any such option at the time, believe me.
Labor Ready and Manpower are the most common, but there are alot of independent agencies also. Depends on the area, but they often pay above minimum wage since they know the jobs suck. Some can even lead to permanent jobs, or give a strong lead to one.
Second guessing my spiritual position, whatever the hell that is, is irrelevant, and judging my character is out of line.
Whether or not I want to give my loose change to someone I don’t know is raising a completely different question, and trying to give me a guilt trip about my piety is not going to work.
{quote]My reasoning is thus: If I give him/her a buck, at best they will use that to get some kind of sustenance. All that does is help them maintain their status quo. I want that person to do something to improve their condition, but if they keep getting handouts, they will never have any motivation to go to shelters, get support from government agencies, etc. Sort of like the whole teach him to be a fisherman rather than give him a fish thing.
[/quote]
I admire your dedication. Your willingness to spend hours of your own time helping homeless people find work so they can earn enough money to be self-sustaining is an inspiration. I feel less about myself because I only give homeless people some money to temporarily alleviate their problems rather than make the far greater effort to solve those problems like you do.
Oh well, at least I’m not one of those people who doesn’t give time or money and then pretends he’s acting on some high moral principle.
I have a hard time with beggars. My wife says I’m too soft hearted and shes right. Last year we were in Rome and if you’ve ever been around the Vatican you’ll see a million and half women begging. Some of them are holding babies, and begging for change. One of them kept shoving the baby in my face and babbling in italian (I guess, I don’t speak italian) until a friend of ours forcibly chased her away. Her reasoning: There were a lot of women doing that out there, the baby never moved or cried and we didn’t get a good look at it (causing my friend to suggest it was a doll, not a real child) and there were several shelters we had seen in the area. She was probably right.
I used to give change to beggars a lot when I lived in VA and worked at the Pentagon until I got fed up with it. I won’t say every beggar was a scam artist but there were a lot of them. The obvious ones, really get on my nerves. One guy hung out in front of the 7-11 near my home for about a week. His line was* “Hey, brother let me talk to you when you come out.” * as you went inside, which translates into “**I want you to give me your change.” ** the annoying thing was this guy was young, dressed cleanly (indicating he at the very least had a place to sleep and wash up) and healthy looking. When I came out he gave me a line about needing 3 bucks to catch the bus from alexandria to Washington. I informed him that the bus didn’t cost 3 bucks. He could catch the the bus that I just got out of and take a transfer at the Pentagon to DC. He then told me he couldn’t do that because he has a fear of water and the subway goes over the potomac. (I’m not making this up) I was suitably annoyed with him by this point so I told him he’d have to cross the potomac no matter how he travelled there and left. The next day I was off of work and went down there. The same guy was there and said the same thing almost verbatim. I said *“Didn’t you tell me this yesterday? You know, when I got off of the bus in uniform?”. * It took him a minute to recognize me and then he kind of scampered away. But he kept this up for a few more days (I saw him lay down this story to several other people) and then I never saw him again.
That was the beggar that I remember annoying me the most but I’ve met a few others scamming like
[ol]
[li]**The bicycle messenger guy ** that came up to me carrying a bike saying he had a flat and needed a few bucks for the metro. If i gave it to him his boss would reimburse me through the mail. I told him I didn’t believe him and asked him to please leave me alone. I was waiting on a friend. He was persistent and I eventually had to physically threaten him to make him stop following me. [/li][li]**The window wiper guy ** that hung out in front of the liquor store. Every single freaking time I parked there he’d run up and start washing my windshield and asking to bwe paid for it. He was a young and apparently not homeless guy…and he would hussle too, so he could plop his rag on the car before you could say no. When I finally asked him to stop bothering me he told me how he would join the military to make a living but they wouldn’t take him because he had a criminal record. (I wasn’t a recruiter then, but i was in uniform) I stoppedgoing to that particular store because of that guy. [/li][li]The Bag Lady that spit on my cousin one afternoon because she refused to give her change. My cousin ended up chasing her down the street with me behind her yelling “Don’t kill her!”. Fun times. [/li][li]The ATM Lurker. I only saw this guy once, but he waited by an ATM one evening and stopped practically everyone he saw walking away from it. I just ignored him, but it kinda bugged me.[/li][/ol]
Those experiences kind of soured me to giving money on the street. I feel bad for people that genuinely need some help or just a little change to get some food, but there are too many scams out there and its not like i’m rolling in dough. These people twist your generosity and use it against you. The worst part is because of assholes like that I’ve probably refused to help people that were honestly looking for a little help on the side of caution. Which makes me feel bad. Whether or not that makes me a jackass I don’t know, but i’ve been ripped off before and I didn’t enjoy it.
I just give money to charities now, and anonymously. Last time I gave to a charity and used my real name they contacted me every freaking week for more…and the gave my number out to other charities. (so I got telemarketed a thousand times.)
Does anyone actually fall for that scam? Seriously, in the Hall of Scamming Fame thats gotta be the weakest email scam I’ve ever seen.
Not to go too off topic, but a few years ago I answered one of those nigerian scam emails just for fun. I told the sender I was a senior citizen and I needed my son to come over and drive me to the bank to get the info he needed. I kept this up for almost a week until the “Nigerian Minister of Finance” or whatever he was calling himself emailed me and said point blank “Are you going to give me your account number, or what?”.
I was laughing too hard to reply with more than “Are you serious? You’re the 10th Nigerian to email me this month.” and then I set up filters in my firewall to stop that nonsense. I guess somewhere someone does fall for it though…despite the fact that I find it fantastically lame.
I have travelled recently to Costa Rica and El Salvador and I have worked beside people who are trying to alleviate serious poverty and injustice. I am emotionally still dealing with it, and trying to sort out my own response. I am trying to change my life to better reflect love for the poor. I have not gotten it right yet, but along the way I can be pompous and arrogant, which doesn’t help anyone.
Those evil smelling guys sitting on street corners in a pool of piss need the money. They’re not doing it because it’s a soft career choice, so whatever their reasons are, and whatever their line is, my witholding or giving cash won’t change anything beyond the next couple of hours. I give when the spirit moves me, and don’t give when I don’t want to. A lot of times I just say ‘Hi’ - that dignity thing.
The Vatican women with babies thing is way more complicated. If I get the sense that a panhandler is getting pimped in some way (often children), I don’t give money. I don’t know if I’m right or wrong, but my hope is that if they don’t turn a profit, they may get cut loose. Can always hope. I’ve tried to talk to kid beggars on a couple of occasions, but it’s mostly pretty frustrating - clearly they can see that there’s another world, but they don’t seem to really believe in it.
I do volunteer work at a risk reduction program for drug addicts and prostitutes, and the whole issue of enabling is very present. The organization I’m with tries to minimize exposure to disease (clean works, free rubbers, free health care etc), without actively trying to encourage the addicts to change. My personal philosophy is more about taking the long shot, and trying to bring people back on board, and getting them to stop using drugs, stop selling sex, stop committing crimes etc. Meanwhile our program (though a drop in the ocean) is keeping people alive, slowing the spread of aids etc. We recently had some legal problems because we were providing free testing of the quality of drugs - on the one hand reducing the risk of ODs, on the other hand making it easier to use illegal drugs. A complex issue.
There are people that give. There are people who don’t. The ones who don’t go through all kinds of tricks to justify their choice.I give. I don’t need to know their life history. They are at the bottom .They need help to survive or with buying something to help them cope. If you give it might lower the chance they will commit a crime to get by. Or not.
It is really about you and what kind of person you are. Do you feel better after giving. Then do it. Do you feel cheated then don’t. No need to justify your lack of compassion.
There are people who spend their money frivolously–by spending it on lottery tickets, cigarettes, and junk food–and their are people who invest wisely–on education, job training, preventative medical care, et cetera. Just because you do it by proxy doesn’t make the expense any less frivolous. No need to justify your lack of foresight or responsibility.
When you give money to someone on a street corner you are indulging in a cheap form of “compassion”; the kind of comfort you offer an alcoholic by buying him another drink. It makes you feel good immediately, perhaps, but you’ve done nothing to help your “friend” deal with his problems and lead a productive or self-controlled life. If you really wanted to help and show compassion to “the homeless” then you’d donate your money and/or time to a local shelter or charity. 'Course, this will cost you more than the change in your pocket, but then you’ll be able to legitimately lord over people who don’t meet your standard of beneficence (if this is what feeds your soul) rather than having purchased a cheap, whitewashed version of it.