Does God Love People Who Go To Hell?

[ivan_astikov]

My version of hell would be being stuck in an eternally descending elevator, with Curtis Le May asking me silly questions all the way down.

[Czarcasm]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. He loves them enough to grant them free will. If their misuse of their free will lands them in Hell, he weeps for them, but still loves them.

At least, that’s my interpretation of standard Christian theology. I don’t find it intellectually contradictory.

I’ve heard this interpretation frequently-it’s your decision whether or not you go to Hell. I usually counter this with “What if I don’t follow the rules, but decide to go to Heaven anyway? Will God then take an active hand in sending me to Hell?”

[kanicbird]

God preknew everyone before He made the heaven and earth.

He desires all to be saved and conformed to the likeness of His Son.

If He created and KNEW everyone and planned the whole thing perfectly, there is no way any part of His creation will spend eternity in Hell, unless He created some in a way that they desire it and enjoy it, which I doubt.

So IMHO the only part that a loving God would condemn to Hell for ‘ever and ever’ or ‘ages of ages’ are aspects of God Himself, or more specifically the ‘sons of God’ (Gen 6, Job 1), who are part of God eternal.

This does not mean that God won’t allow a created person to spend time in Hell if that’s what they need to come to Jesus. And once that soul in Hell turns to Jesus, Jesus can use him to reach other souls in Hell.

Note the difference between Rev 14:11 for the created beings, vs. 20:10 for Satan, who is related to the ‘sons of God’ in Job 1.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11 only says the smoke of their torment will continue, not their torment, it is a important distinction IMHO.

Also note some translations have ‘ever and ever’ as ‘ages of ages’ instead.

[Koxinga]

@Sandwich

Just hold it right there pardner. Since the whole bible is literally true*, how can there be conflicting passages? :dubious:

• allegedly

Alleged by whom, pray tell?

[kanicbird]

@Czarcasm

I’ve heard this interpretation frequently-it’s your decision whether or not you go to Hell. I usually counter this with “What if I don’t follow the rules, but decide to go to Heaven anyway? Will God then take an active hand in sending me to Hell?”

Doesn’t sound like a good plan, but if you believe you naturally follow the path of God/Love then is it possible:

@Rom 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. He loves them enough to grant them free will. If their misuse of their free will lands them in Hell, he weeps for them, but still loves them.

At least, that’s my interpretation of standard Christian theology. I don’t find it intellectually contradictory.

I’ve already explained why this angle is nonsense. God didn’t have to invent Hell. Their punishment serves no purpose.

The Bible also clearly say that God DOES hate them. “God loves everybody” is not in the Bible, contrary to popular belief.

[rivulus]

@FriarTed

The Matthew 25 Sheep & Goats passage is interesting as the two terms for the fate of the condemned are literally “aionion pyr” and “kolasin aionion”, usually translated as “eternal fire” and “eternal punishment”, although “aionion” actually means what it sounds like, something that endures for an aion or so, and “kolasin” was often used by the Greeks to denote “CORRECTIVE punishment”.

As for the fire, the Old Testament repeatedly refers to God’s Presence as Fire which burns up the evil & refines the righteous. Isaiah 30:33 says that the Fire of Tophet (Gehenna) is kindled as a stream of brimstone from the Breath of YHWH.

There are many ways of looking at the question, even from the view of Bible-believers such as Curtis and I. Are souls necessarily immortal or can they be destroyed? Does “aionion” condemnation endure forever or just as long as necessary for either correction or destruction? Do condemned souls endure their condemnation deprived of God’s Presence or within God’s Presence? May it be true, as I have said and as some in Eastern Orthodoxy teach, that “the Glory of God is the Lake of Gehenna Fire”, that the same Light of God which delights the saved is perpetual torment to the damned (see also John 3:19-21)? I consider all these to be open questions.

Very interesting. Thanks.

However, now I must curse you, since I will have the “And he shall purify the sons of Levi” passage from The Messiah running through my head all day. It’s a whole new definition of fugue state and a particular kind of hell.
And he shall purifyyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi… For he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fire, aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh kill me now!

[Koxinga]

@Czarcasm

“What if I don’t follow the rules, but decide to go to Heaven anyway?”

You’ll wake up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks, and one of them will say, "We’re going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts . . . "

[FriarTed]

@rivulus

Very interesting. Thanks.

However, now I must curse you, since I will have the “And he shall purify the sons of Levi” passage from The Messiah running through my head all day. It’s a whole new definition of fugue state and a particular kind of hell.
And he shall purifyyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi, and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi,and he shall purifyyyyyy the sons of Levi… For he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fiiire, for he is like a refiiiiiiiiiner’s fiiire, like a refiiiiiiner’s fire, aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh kill me now!

I have had to sing that many years ago and I humbly accept your imprecation.

[Tim_R.Mortiss]

@jtgain

I’ve heard that as well, but I have problems with it. God created me as I am. He knew from the dawn of time what my genetic makeup would be and how I would react to different events. He created me exactly that way.

So, by behaving exactly as I was created, I have free will and “deserve” a punishment?

Isn’t it God’s fault for making me that way?

Or is God not omnipotent and just let me make my own choices?

You are rejecting the notion of free will in your argument. If you are going to postulate the notion of predestination, then the whole Heaven/Hell thing does get difficult to make sense of. And if you *are *going to postulate predestination, then you can no longer bring free will into the mix.

Furthermore: there’s no reason to believe that just because God is omnipotent (CAN do anything) that he actually WILL do anything. He may believe that your free will is the greatest gift he can give you.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

You are rejecting the notion of free will in your argument. If you are going to postulate the notion of predestination, then the whole Heaven/Hell thing does get difficult to make sense of. And if you *are *going to postulate predestination, then you can no longer bring free will into the mix.

It’s not about predestination, it’s about omniscience. Why would God create people he knows will end up in Hell? Why not just refrain from creating them altogether?

The whole concept of “free will” is not logically coherent in the first place, but even accepting it at face value, it still does not stand that God has to create people who he knows will choose evil, nor does it it stand that he has to punish people eternally for it.

[UltraVires]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

You are rejecting the notion of free will in your argument. If you are going to postulate the notion of predestination, then the whole Heaven/Hell thing does get difficult to make sense of. And if you *are *going to postulate predestination, then you can no longer bring free will into the mix.

Furthermore: there’s no reason to believe that just because God is omnipotent (CAN do anything) that he actually WILL do anything. He may believe that your free will is the greatest gift he can give you.

But if God is omniscient, then predestination must be true. Otherwise God is not omniscient.

As to the bolded part: If my free will leads me to an eternity of torture and torment, then by any objective judgement, let alone an all-knowing one, my free will was the worst possible thing that I could have been given. By a long shot.

[Tim_R.Mortiss]

@jtgain

But if God is omniscient, then predestination must be true. Otherwise God is not omniscient.

As to the bolded part: If my free will leads me to an eternity of torture and torment, then by any objective judgement, let alone an all-knowing one, my free will was the worst possible thing that I could have been given. By a long shot.

I think I agree with you: to believe in both free will and in an omniscient God (including knowledge of the future) would be a contradiction.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

I think I agree with you: to believe in both free will and in an omniscient God (including knowledge of the future) would be a contradiction.

I don’t see why that necessarily must be so. Having free will doesn’t mean that your choices aren’t predictable, and knowing in advance that someone will make a certain choice doesn’t mean that choice was not a free one.

[gonzomax]

Ah. The Father, The son, The holy Ghost, the Psychopath. Creating man and then sending him to hell for an eternity. what a sick thing to do. not much empathy.

[Koxinga]

I’ve never understood the implied argument, though, that “God is horribly unfair, therefore I can’t believe in God.”

[begbert2]

@Revenant_Threshold

I don’t see why that necessarily must be so. Having free will doesn’t mean that your choices aren’t predictable, and knowing in advance that someone will make a certain choice doesn’t mean that choice was not a free one.

This is only true if you are not perfectly predictable - which is a normal way to think about it, since nobody that anybody interacts with is omniscient. But if one were to interact with somebody who actually knew the future (or know your thinking process well enough to predict you perfectly), then you have no freedom of choice - you are locked into your path and cannot escape, making the “free” in “free will” false.

(At least for the definitions of free will that matter to this discussion - the ones that free God of responsibility for your fate. There are uses of the term that apply to wind-up toys, but they aren’t relevent to this discussion.)

[begbert2]

@Koxinga

I’ve never understood the implied argument, though, that “God is horribly unfair, therefore I can’t believe in God.”

Naw, the implied argument is “If your god is an ass, I ain’t gonna worship him even if I learn he exists.”

The part about believing in him typically comes from lack of evidence to date.

[gonzomax]

@Koxinga

I’ve never understood the implied argument, though, that “God is horribly unfair, therefore I can’t believe in God.”

That is not the argument. It is playing "know your god’. If you are a believer, you have to come to an understanding that he does horribly cruel things. Hell is chock full of people who ate meat on Friday. That is a horrible price to pay for such a small transgression.
Believe if you want to, just have a realistic understanding of what you believe in.

[begbert2]

@gonzomax

That is not the argument. It is playing "know your god’. If you are a believer, you have to come to an understanding that he does horribly cruel things. Hell is chock full of people who ate meat on Friday. That is a horrible price to pay for such a small transgression.
Believe if you want to, just have a realistic understanding of what you believe in.

That and some atheists like the argument “You say your god is perfectly good, but the other things you say about him prove otherwise. The god you imagine exists is therefore self-contradictory and therefore cannot exist (at least, not as you imagine him.)”