If God can’t make distinctions that we mortals do every day, he ain’t perfect.
The late Bill Hicks summed up the OP: “Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God’s infinite love”.
Forgot to address that last part:
I can’t recall any specific sermonizing against Catholics but I had the strong impression that they were not held in high regard.
The pastor of the church that my brother currently attends tells the congregation that the Catholic church is the “Scarlet Whore of Babylon.”
Well the Southern Baptist Convention is a BIG denomination (the largest in America after the Roman Catholics) and holds a variety of opinions ranging from Billy Graham to Pat Robertson to (until recently) fmr. Presidents Carter and Clinton. They aren’t as extreme as IFBers usually are-possibly a very conservative SBC church or one of the less radical IFB churches.
For information on Independent Baptist practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist
God wishes every person to avoid hell and be saved from it (2 Pet 3:9). Christians do not believe God sends people to hell. Hell is freely chosen by those who reject God.
God gave every person the power of free will and the most important decision we will make with that power of free will is whether to embrace or reject God. Since heaven is a place where we spend eternity with God, then for those who reject God, there needs to be a place where they can escape him.
If you are a person who wants nothing to do with God in this life, then wouldn’t it be hell for you to be in heaven with God forever?
C. S. Lewis summarizes this issue well, as usual. He says, “The door of hell is locked on the inside.” All those who go to hell will to be there and to stay there. He adds, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in hell choose it.”
Why doesn’t God force everyone to ultimately choose him so that all people go to heaven? After all, some might say, that is the right thing to do.
The problem with this solution is that God created free human beings, and if he forces them to do anything, then he is violating their freedom. If God forces people to choose him, it comes down to a kind of “divine rape,” a coercion. God’s love demands that he offer people a place where they can freely reject him, forever.
John Pratt
I liked the movie version-I believe it was called “Saw”.
What a bunch of victim-blaming bullshit.
Hell serves no purpose. Eternal punishment serves no purpose and can never be deserved.
The typical attempts to characterize Hell as the choice of the victims is rebutted by the fact that they did NOT have a choice as long as God refuses to provide any evidence of his own existence or justification for giving him fealty, and by the fact that Hell serves no purpose. If God doesn’t want to let somebody into his awesome clubhouse, he can just zap them out of existence. No need to either actively make them suffer, or passively allow them to suffer (and for God, there is no distinction between active and passive). All suffering in Hell is purely gratuitous, pointless and incompatible with a benevolent God.
The free will argument falls apart if God is omniscient. He already knows who will go to Helll and who won’t. all he has to do is create only people who will freely choose good. This does not contradict their free will. He would only be creating people who he already knows with his omniscience will choose good all by themselves. An omniscient God has no excuse for creating people who will choose evil and end up in Hell.
I assume by “Hell”, you mean “Eternal Conscious Suffering”. So do you find Annihilation or the idea of a Temporary-Rehabilitative Hell to be more morally acceptable? How about the Eastern Orthodox idea of Eternal Existence in Heaven Yet Hardened Against God’s Love?
…unless “Omniscience” is defined as “Knowing all that is known” as opposed to “Knowing the future, the past, the possible… everything.”
From the internet, I find these verses on divine omniscience: Domain parked by Instra
Some support the “Knowing all that is known” story: the point is that the Lord has eyes in the back of his head, much like my 2nd grade teacher. “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” (Heb 4:13 c.f. 2 Ch 16:9)
Then again, Elihu describes God as the one “who is perfect in knowledge” (Job 37:16 c.f. Job 36:4). And Psalm 139 seems to support predestination: “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” (v. 16)"
Eh, I wouldn’t take everything in Psalm literally. I say that the Bible can be interpreted validly as a primary source document, spiritually, allegorically, morally, hermeneutically, anagogically and various other adverbs found in wikipedia. Furthermore, the appropriate stance should vary with context. But hey, I’m a liberal.
Yes to both.
Rubbish. Practically speaking, it’s indistinguishable from eternal hell, and has all the same problems.
That’s not the definition of omniscience, but the Bible makes it clear that God knows the future anyway (hey, how else would prophecy be possible?).
(Emphasis added to the first part of this drivel.)
[del]You lost me at the forbidden fruit somehow being contraceptive.[/del]
Nevermind.
Nothing in the post worth responding to.
I usually use the NIV, sometimes going to the NASB, or even on occasion the King James, sometimes going to the original language with word for word translations, all as lead by the Holy Spirit. It is all through the Bible, most likely encompassing a majority of the books, as IMHO they are meant to be interconnected and linked.
Point taken (and thanks) but just to nitpick a prophecy could be a divinely-inspired forecast, or a divine plan. I grant that I see little evidence for such a Biblical interpretation.
I’m not asking for a list of Bibles you pick and choose from-I’m asking specifically where you got that particular bit of information, because I’m not finding it in any of those Bibles so far.
Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.
You are asking for God’s plan for salvation, which He already wrote the book on, the entire book. So that is your stating point, Gen 1:1 ending with Rev 22:21.
Some basic concepts from scripture that support my statement:
- God created us all, knowing us before creation existed.
- God knows where we will be at all times
- God desires all to come to salvation
- God desires all of us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.
- God’s plan is perfect, no one can thwart the plan of God
Given the above, how can God make a person that wouldn’t eventually come to salvation?
Assuming God exists, he is almost certainly indifferent to all of us.
He gets a free pass to charbroil all the natives in Borneo who have never heard of the Catholic church or Jesus. All those reared in Muslim country ,with Muslim parents and schools are doomed to endless sizzling. This is some kind of loving god.
I have an indisputable cite that evolution is true: the collection of all science books and papers in existence. Plus all the non-science books and papers in existence. There may be a few other things in there that don’t have anything to do with evolution, but I feel there’s nothing wrong with expecting you to sort through it all and pick out the relevent bits.
Let me know when you’re done.
I just thought he was having a flashback to that scene in Braveheart when the judges tell Wallace that he has to “be purified through pain” before his execution.