The god you worship is a sadistic monstrosity, prevented from being history’s greatest villain only by the fact that he doesn’t exist.
Yes, I believe scriptures speak of a non-eternal hell for people, but the place of Hell is eternal by-your-own-words.
If the flames are eternal then hell is not of this world, as this world will eventually end, but Satan, the false prophet and the beast may spend eternity (or ages of ages).
What charge do you present against Lord Jesus?
No, the word “eternal” is figurative. The place described, “Gehenna,” is an actualy physical valley outside Jersualem that was used as a garbage dump and as a disposal site for dead animals. It wa also a place where the bodies of executed criminals were sometimes cast.
People perpetually kept fires burning in the valley to try to minimize the garbage and the stink of rotting corpse, and worms and maggots were obviously found in abundance.
Hence Gehenna was a place where “the fires are never quenched and the worm never dies.”
Jesus himself was using Gehenna as a methophorical site of annihilation for the wicked on the day of judgement.
I respect what you say, buy how do you reconcile:
Hey, man, the God I don’t believe in is a pretty nice guy.
First off, Revelation is allegory from start to finish (you don’t think there’s going to literally be a multi-headed beast rising out of the ocean sporting a whore on its back, do you?), but secondly, the “lake of fire” in Revelation is only for Satan and his demons.
The first part is not really relevant to this, as I believe the Word to be true, our understanding of reality to be false, but I believe that Satan, the beast and the false prophet will be ultimately the only 3 to suffer that long (not the demons), if that be ever and ever or alternate translation for ages of ages, I’m not sure, but I believe Satan is also one of God’s children who God desires non to be lost but all saved, so I tend towards the ages of ages.
I’m sure you know that I would agree with that, and I’ve posted extensively to that effect in the past.
Once again, I believe the flaws in your thoughts—in my view—are as follows:
1) You ascribe implicitly to God much of “this stuff” that wasn’t his stuff.
I make no claim that any of this is true, or happened, for that is not germane to the discussion. If God made the first couple and offered them eternal life in a perfect world, free of crime, suffering, pain etc etc it is entirely reasonable to not only put some restrictions on this offer, but a certain penalty if they rebelled. The jam that humans find themselves in, therefore, is not of his doing. The [oft repeated] response is akin to your post in that it implicitly seeks to tamper with free will, and it introduces,…
2) Unintended consequences.
If free will exists for all sentient creatures (including Satan et al) then tampering with the consequences of the choices free will produces invalidates free will. It puts God in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” position; if he creates creatures who have the power to choose, and they exercise that power to their detriment , he’s cruel. If he intervenes, he’s acting like a Puppet Master------- for his now automatons. He can’t win for losing.
3) He’s offered to clean up the mess you created with your use of free will.
It would appear that his original offer-----humans living without fear, or pain or suffering etc is something he’s still interested in. Now whether you personally think it’s silly or not, the fact is, if he exists he has the right to establish what constitutes “justice.” It looks as if the injustice of Adam/Eve’s rebellion had to be answered for. He sent his son to “cancel” out the injustice of this rebellion, in spite of the fact that it wasn’t his problem in the first place.
4) He’s working on a different calender than the one you and I are on.
More than once you and I have been on the same side of the argument that argues that, not only does the bible not indicate a eternal tormenting hell, but its very existence would not be indicative of a loving God. The logic follows that the biggest scoundrel cannot earn an eternity of suffering for even the most abject evil 80 or so years can produce.
The inverse is true also. Whatever suffering we may face------which is of our own doing anyway-------pales in comparison to the eternity of unending life free of pain suffering etc etc. There is an immediacy of current suffering that makes it hard to keep this in perspective, but the lessons from Job, Jesus and others is that there is more to life then our immediate condition, and the “hope” that the future may bring enduring, and permanent relief. Once again, it’s not germane to whether any of this is true or not, but it is intellectually defensible.
ETA: Along the way, there are many, many sentiments that simply amount to “witnessing” of sorts, or are simply taking issue with God, or the concept of one. The substance of them don’t invalidate his existence, or establish his non-existence, and should he really exist simply amount to taking exception to the way he chooses to operate the universe. For example:
“All evil is unnecessary.” I may feel that way, and you may feel that way. But if this High Octane God exists, he’s not subject to our reasonings.
“He can accomplish anything he wants without suffering.” Sure he can, but he chose not to. We may disagree, but that’s the extent of it.
About twenty years ago I had a religion teacher in college say this, and at the time I was scandalized. Twenty years older and wiser, and knowing God and the Bible better now than I did then, I don’t find it as heretical as it seemed back then: Hell is probably empty.
Speaking as a believer, that theory seems to be the best fit with the character of God and what is revealed in scripture.
In I Corinthians 15, Paul speaks of Christ putting all His enemies under His dominion, including death, and then God will be All in All, and later says that “Death shall be swallowed up in victory”. In Revelation 20, John speaks of Death & Hades being cast in the Lake of Fire & Brimstone. Daniel 7- God’s Throne Chariot has streams of Fire emanating from it. In Isaiah 30, the Fire & Brimstone of Gehenna are said to be kindled by the Breath of YHWH. Hebrews 10- Our God is a consuming Fire…
that’s why I’m committed to the Eastern Orthodox perspective of Gehenna Hell being the Undiluted Presence of God in all His Love & Justice- and the “damned” as those who resist surrender, who hate The Light but now have no place to hide-but I just can’t give a definitive answer as to if they will eventually be reconciled, allowed to burn out of existence, or allowed to exist forever in rebellion. I hope for the eventual emptying & the complete reconciliation.
That’s a much more comforting concept than the idea of Hell as a place of neverending torment. I suspect that the “everlasting torture” was a human construct since it is so monstrous.
:rolleyes:
All you have to do is change the subject of your empty attempt at persuasion to Santa Claus to see how silly it is. Sure, it may hurt for a child to realize that it’s really only a parent, parents, a guardian, or what have you. The child probably would feel less satisfied. However, the non-existence of Santa has the supreme advantage of being true.
Oh, and people know that they have the power to change their minds. They don’t need to be told by you. Maybe you should ask yourself why you never consider that you may be wrong.
BTW, I’m surprised that you didn’t go on to accuse him of worshipping evolution.
- Og
These folks have the notion that God can choose not to be omniscient or omnipotent at certain times:
It still doesn’t quite satisfy, though. I’ve given this a lot of thought ever since this thread appeared.
I am amused that “Qin Shi Huangdi” still has his old handle show up when people quote him.
This is a easy one. God Loves all His children. Also Hell is not eternal punishment, as Jesus conquered the grave and has given us the ability and authority to raise people from the dead. Hell is not a barrier, it is a refinement for children who need that level of refinement.
Oh my…my brain just asploded.
Did you get that directly from Jesus when you talked to him?
Why not just skip the refining process altogether and just make them good?