Why not?
I’m not sure what theological quandry you’re talking about. Reincarnation answers the problem of how people are judged at physical death. That’s what we were talking about. Is it fair for a good non Christian person to be judged harsher than a good Christian person. Answer; No it isn’t. We stop being reincarnanted when we finally learn over x amount of lifetimes, to let go of everything that makes us believe we are spereate from God and each other.
The history of religion—and for the purpose of this discussion the Christian Church—is replete with perversions of the pure teaching of Christ and what it means to be Christian, as espoused by The Man Himself, Christ.
Ironically, some of the most bitter criticsms Christ leveled at the Jewish religion of his day was it’s perversion of the pure teaching of God and the perversion and ‘gaming’ of The Law of Moses.
If some church council somewhere, sometime, voted against reincarnation it’s because they had the good sense to see it had no biblical basis, was contrary to the teachings of God from time immemorial and was an affront before God.
The world is chock full of religious doctrines that are perversions of the pure teaching of their faith. Christianity is full of these perversions. It’s interesting that you would cite Jesus given his unambiguous and strident views on those who would bring man made traditions and philosophies into the worship of God.
At any rate, there is no biblical basis to support reincarnation—none. On the contrary. The bible’s teaching on such matters are in stark contradiction to the teaching of reincarnation. If Jesus was walking among us I can’t imagining him giving any quarter to those who would merge reincarnation into his teachings.
We do not have God’s life, power, wisdom, experience, sense of purpose, or or perspective, but we’re not expected to. You’re not God. Nor am I. In the 70 or 80 years we are given there is ample time—within the human perspective and experience—to utilize our gift of free will to bring honor and glory to God, *and to see the consequences of those choices. *
We are in no way limited in our human life span in living a purposeful life and making informed choices. Mixing metaphors may make for clever analogies but I don’t need God’s time, life or knowledge to understand him and worship him.
If you define God as Love, perfect mercy and justice, it is illogiocal and unreasonable to then hold a doctrine which is contrary to these foundational beliefs.
So, as we are discussing in this thread, does it seem like love and justice if two people live similar lives morally. One dies at 50 without official repentence so goes to hell, and one lives a year longer and repents so recieves eternal reward. It just doesn’t make sense. Even though there are many semantic games and justifications, in the end it doesn’t add up.
‘Heaven is a kingdom within you’ is a pithy Feel Good doctrine, but it is unsupported in the scrpitures.
That’s your opinion and it’s a popular one in Christianity. I’m sure those councils had good sense and were following the Holy Spirit when they persecuted and murdered those who didn’t agree with their doctrines. Judgeing by those actions I have no reason to trust their judgement on anything relating to Christ. You assume they had good reasons because you want to believe that and resist reincarnation because it goes against long held Christian tradition. Tradition is not truth and carries very little weight with me.
I don’t agree that agree that reincarnation has no Biblical basis. There are indications of a belief in reincarnation in the Bible. Such as,
It seems that if these people thought Jesus was a returned prophet then they must have believed in some kind of reincarnation. Other passages hint at reincarnation but I won’t hijack the thread for that. I’ll provide a link if you’d like to see more.
There are no clear passages to support it or denounce it. As with many things, we are left to sort it out. The passages can be rationalized away by Christian apologists, but to date I see no reason to think their interpretation is any better than my own or others who believe as I do.
Is it? What’s interesting about it?
We are instructed to try the spiriits to see if they are of God. I don’t claim to speak for God or Jesus. I’m in a discusion board voicing my opinion. That’s quite different than those who present tradition and their opinion as if it is the will of God.
Then you might be surprised. As I said. There are Biblical passages in both the OT and NT that hint at reincarnation. If you can point out any thing Christ said himself that clearly denounces it please do so, because I must have missed it.
Another popular opinion that falls down quickly under scrutiny. Obviously in this life many people do not have ample time or opportunity.
Who is we? Mankind in general? Again, many people are not aware of Christ and have little if any opportunity to make informed choices about God. In fact you and I both believe we are making informed choices and yet we completely disagree on this subject at least.
You and others I’ve encountered seem to think I’ve perverted the teachings of Christ. In my view I have tried to discern the difference between traditional beliefs and the truth of what Christ taught. I have accepted the responsibility of chosing my own path and try to respect others right to do the same.
The fact that it is the words of Jesus notwithstanding I suppose? :rolleyes:
It seems like you’re making the assumptions, first, that going to heaven and hell has something to do with morallity, and second, that if you repent you’ll go to heaven and if you don’t you’ll go to hell, and third, that heaven is a reward (for good actions or for repentance.
For purpose of argument, we can assume that none of this is true. Lets assume that everybody goes to hell, or that everybody goes to hell except for those people that God picks to go to heaven, for whatever reason of his own…maybe it’s random, or maybe God has some selection criteria we don’t understand.
For analogy, lets assume a prison. Everyone in the prison is there for a reason, and it’s just that they’re in there. However, the governor can always pardon a prisoner. That pardon is itself an act of mercy; the governor doesn’t have to pardon the prisoner.
cosmosdan, do you dismiss the scriptural support that states that this life’s deeds are inextricably linked to salvation? Or would you say that’s a misreading of these verses? (Or something else completely?) Your logic seems compelling to me, BTW, though it is on conflict with certain things:
Not at all! Asking the questions is part of the journey too. 
We can assume any kind of scenario we care to. Is there a point you’re trying to make with this one?
For the record, I’m only useing some traditional terms for the sake of this discussion relating to the OP. Personally I don’t believe much in punishment and reward, but rather the consequences of our own choices. In your analogy that would mean we are in a prison we built ourselves and have the ability to find our way out. The Governor has already said “Com’on out’, It’s cool” but we have to make take the steps that lead to freedom.
No I don’t dismiss them. You’ll note that in my 1st post I mentioned we are judged according to our deeds and gave scriptures. I think our deeds are a reflection of the condition of our spirit, regardless of what we give lip service to. Jesus taught this very thing.
The scriptures are like a big puzzle. People can pull scriptures out of context, string them together and come up with a doctrine. It isn’t easy to sort it all out. The scriptures are also heavily influenced by the culture and social customs of the time. You’ll notice that many people who believe in God and are sincere still don’t agree about the interpretation of the scriptures. I decided years ago to read them and decide for myself and to try to find some answers that made sense given the foundation that I mentioned above, that God is Love and in God there is perfect mercy, compassion, and also justice. All interpretations of scripture have to fit that foundation.
For instance, I asked the question, is reincarnation incompatible with what Jesus taught? Not Christian tradition, but what was actually in the Bible. Not some study guide telling me what the Bible meant but what I saw and what reason told me. Through this study I discovered that reincarnation was taught by the early Christian groups. I found others believed that the Bible does point to reinacarnation and studied the passages about it. It’s not conclusive but neither does it clearly dismiss the notion. It leaves the possibility open. I’m not asking anyone else to believe it. It just makes more sense to me than other doctrines I’ve looked at.
It doesn’t answer it. It just adds another step.
It doesn’t matter if it’s your fiftieth life or your first life. If God doesn’t take you until you’re saved, you are predestined to a specific fate. That contradicts the ideas of free will.
Which means you can’t choose other than to be with God, eventually. You don’t have free will if you can’t choose other than to be with God, eventually.
Imagine life is like a maze and the center is communion with God. Some people rush right through the maze and end up in the center. Others wander around the maze confused. In many beliefs, if you come to a dead end, you die and it doesn’t matter how close you were to the center of the maze. You weren’t there, so you’re punished. Some people would have made it to the center if they had been given more time. Others wouldn’t have, ever.
The OP asks if it’s fair for some people not to be given enough time to find the center. He asks if perhaps you’re always given enough time to find the center or to reject finding it. Reincarnation just posits that if you hit a dead end, you get put back at the beginning of the maze again, for as long as it takes.
But it doesn’t matter if you get several lifetimes or just one. If you can’t reject God, you don’t have free will.
Don’t notions of reincarnation typically hold that you don’t really start at the beginning of the maze again, that your experiences (though not remembered in the way we typically think of things we recollect) come along with you? I think your point still stands, since even that doesn’t mean that a million lifetimes would be enough for some–unless we conclude that God creates only those who have the propensity for salvation, and He’s going to make sure you get enough time. And then you’re back to the question of what exactly free will signifies in this scenario, if your salvation is an inevitability.
But I realize the paradox I’m posing is nothing novel. Perhaps the answer is that simple: It pleases God that you provide your love with a free will, even if it takes a while. Is the inevitability of a freely made choice really a contradictory supposition? All things with a greater-than-zero probability are inevitable, given enough time and chances, right? If God places us on a path where, sooner or later, it MUST occur, does that make the act pointless (if we accept it’s a meaningful act otherwise)?
I agree, but some scriptures, including quotes attributed to Jesus, seem pretty unambiguous in warning against making the wrong choices in “this lifetime.” The penalty is severe. Given that, how do you fit these pieces of the puzzle together to produce a picture that concludes what you have? Sincerely interested in any clarification you can provide.
It needn’t occur because it’s not a matter of chance or chaos. Either you accept God - or not. Your choice. God is gracious enough to abide by your choice. He’ll warn it’s not a good one, but it’s your decision. He won’t go where He isn’t wanted, at least not constantly. If you wish, you can give God the finger and slink off to sulk for all eternity.
For the record, God does not recomend it.
How about giving us those words, cited, quoted and put ito context? I’d also like to see them within the larger biblical context as to whether the bible (including Jesus’s own words) supports the notion that the kingdom of heaven is simply within you. (or me) Show me please.
So, you accept the notion of a God who would create someone whose only end can be eternal dissatisfaction (at best) or torture (at worst)? Or are you saying something different?
Certainly many people do accept this. It’s a concept I have difficulty with. I can more comfortably see hell as a place where beings who know and understand God’s nature and calling–know it without confusion or doubt–go if they willingly choose to reject God’s calling. A fallen angel, for example. Someone truly capable of making that conscious decison. But even that being was created by God, so “more comfortable” is just a matter of degree I suppose.
Of course, my comfort with the whole company policy may not be God’s primary concern. 
And by “hell” I mean an eternal post-death state, ranging from a place of horrible torture (a lake of fire) to a state of separation from God that is an ongoing disappointment purely because of that separation. I tend to think of the latter as more likely, but in either instance, it leads to the same confusion for me. It’s still an eternal drag, seemingly inevitable. Again, I understand this isn’t terribly original. My OP, though, was to focus more on the random element of salvation, if scriptures are interpreted in a certain way–not specifically to focus on the inevitable aspect of any outcome that proceeds from an omniscient being.
You don’t have to trust them. I don’t either. Furthermore, in my hundreds of posts here I’ve never appealed to tradition. In this thread alone I’ve been critical of Christian tradtions and teachings. Did you miss that?
There is some irony to that. I did not appeal to tradtion, you did. My interest here is seeing that the bible is given an accurate hearing. I have little interest in tradition, but even less interest in new age, feel good religious permutations of the clear and unambiguous teachings of Christ, and the bible as a whole.
So you understand where I’m coming from, I am not discussing this from the position of theist. I may as well have an academic, or historical interest in the bible account and how it supports reincarnation. I offer you no doctrine or tradition.
If you want to believe in reincarnation, Cool! If you want to make a case that there is a biblical basis to support it, I’m going to have to ask you to show me.
Yes, I’d like to see it; rather than links (I have google too) cite and quote the biblical basis of your argument, including context. I hope that they are better researched than what you’re offering us here. Will that be the case?
You quoted Matthew 16. Here’s the account in context:
For the lurkers, I would appeal to you to log off and read the account for yourself. (the parallel account is at Mark Chapter 8) cosmosdan would have us believe that the bible is indiscernable—that it is so open and contradictory any interpretation is open and presumably acceptable to God. It’s not clear so we have to sort it out. So, if I can find a scrpiture that supports that Jesus can be found in lawn gnomes —no matter how fragile and tenuous, and no matter how many clear unambiguous texts are in contrast to Jesus-as-gnome--------it’s still all good.
Is that so? Is it so thouroughly confusing? Let’s look at cosmosdan’s cite. Does Matt 16, or **Mark 8 ** make a case for reincarnation? The text begin with the Pharisees and Saduccees asking Jesus to show them some signs of God. By now, Jesus was well into his ministry and well known. He had been, for some time, well known by the religious leaders of his day. Increasingly people were flocking to him—and many saw him as the much anticipated Messiah. By now he had preached to thousands of people, and the Sermon on the Mount had already taken place. In spite of this, there was still speculation and some confusion as to he really was. Some level of confusion, speculation and intrigue would remain all the way to his death. (Even Pilate was curious as to he really was) In a short time, Jesus would ride triumphantly into Jerusalem.
Yet right now, there is some excitement as to who he really was, starting with the Pharisees and Saducees. A short while later, Jesus asks “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” And his apostles answer: There is some confusion. Some believe he may be John (his relative and contemporary) or another great prohet. Some, of course, (as his apostle note) see him as God’s Son; the Messiah.
Does this account----read with discernment—support reincarnation in any way? How much creative liberty must be taken to make the case? Further, while there are hundreds and hundreds of texts that speak of life and death, why do none of them speak of reincarnation; and would contradict reincarnation?
Just as importantly, even if we take cosmosdan’s point without question, did either Jesus or the apostles validate any view of reincarnation? I submit that even among those who were questioning Jesus’s indentity there was no claim of reincarnation, but even if there was, there was no confusion anong Jesus or the apostles.
IOW, reincarnation was never taught or supported by Christ, nor are there any texts I’m aware that have God saying it. To the extent it may have been believed, it was among other people.
Neither Jesus or his apostles/successors taught it!
With all due respect, I believe you are not really using the scriptures, and to the extent that you do, you are misquoting them. It is true that reincarnation isn’t specifically denounced, but that’s a silly proposition isn’t it? Migrating to Planet Zero after death, or being converted to Soylent Green isn’t denounced either. OTOH, there hundreds and hundreds of scriptures that speak to the origin of the original human couple and the start of the human race, how humans are conceived, live, die, the condition of the dead, the future prospects of the dead, hell, heaven, God’s original purpose for mankind, and our future prospects (that include both life and death) all in rich detail. Hundreds of them.
And every single one of them is in direct contradiction to the teaching of reincarnation.
I am not writing as an apologist, although it seems you wish to taint the discussion with the charge. As an atheist I’d make the same challenge: Show me.
I’ll say this one last time, and then trust that the viewers at home will see through the fog. It is may seem clever to taint me (or anyone esle who challenges you to support your claim) as an apologist or spout they’re relying on tradition, but it is a poor surrogate for responding in a more sunstantive way.
While we’re at it, please show me, “We are instructed to try the spiriits to see if they are of God.” I have a specific text in mind. I’d like to see if it is the one you’re thinking of—and more importantly how it makes your overall point.
I doubt I’d be surprised. Still, I’d like to be shown. Naturally, I’m interested in how something so absoutely significant is just “hinted” at. Why is that? More importantly, how do I reconcile all those texts that seem to be in direct contradiction to reincarnation?
As to Jesus, there is no burden to find words that denounce reincarnation. What he taught about life and death, the status of those who are dead, the future of mankind, heaven, hell and the like adequately address his views on the human experience. I submit that they do not support reincarnation in any way. Further the bible as a whole doesn’t support reincarnation any way.
I respect your belief in reincarnation. However I don’t believe any credible case can be made that the bible supports it. (while respecting that you may have other sources and reasons to believe) In that respect, I do not believe you are informed.
I have not offered a single traditional belief, either in this thread or in any other. (that I can recall) So far, the text you offered was a text that indicates some confusion among the population as to who Jesus’s identity was. It was not anything Christ taught.
Isn’t that right?
I would be pleased to have you show me where Christ taught reincarnation. I have to go out of town for a few days, and will not be around. I would be willing to contribute to thread, should you wish to start one in a few days, that discusses what the bible has to say about life and death, and how that specifically relates to reincarnation. We can cut through the tradition and see what the bible really has to say.