Does God play Musical Chairs with us?

[cosmosdan]

@jsgoddess

It doesn’t answer it. It just adds another step.

It doesn’t matter if it’s your fiftieth life or your first life. If God doesn’t take you until you’re saved, you are predestined to a specific fate. That contradicts the ideas of free will.

The concept of reincarnation that I find most likely {I am still is learning discovery} is not one in which God decides to save us becasue we meet some criteria but rather we choose to recognize and live according to our true eternal nature {spirit ual} rather than this temporary physical one. I can’t explain the line between predestination and free will. As modern day prophet Forest Gump said, “I think it’s both” We choose which path we follow and when to release or embrace certain beliefs, truths and/or illusions. Our true nature remains constant.

Which means you can’t choose other than to be with God, eventually. You don’t have free will if you can’t choose other than to be with God, eventually.

Can people ultimatly reject their own nature? I don’t know.
Is that a violation of free will?

The OP asks if it’s fair for some people not to be given enough time to find the center. He asks if perhaps you’re always given enough time to find the center or to reject finding it. Reincarnation just posits that if you hit a dead end, you get put back at the beginning of the maze again, for as long as it takes.

But it doesn’t matter if you get several lifetimes or just one. If you can’t reject God, you don’t have free will.

Reincarnation doesn’t posit that you start over. As I understand it, the lessons you learn or don’t learn in one life have a direct relationship to your circumstance and opportunities in the next life. Like grade school, once you’ve learned certain things you move on to the next class. That does apply to the OP in the sense that those who might have accepted God given more time,actually do get more time.

I’m not proposing that you ultimatly you can’t reject God. What I am proposing is that we will have the opportunity to know and understand the choice we are making before we face that kind of choice. I don’t believe that happens in one lifetime.
Rejecting tradition and organized religion is not rejecting God.

[cosmosdan]

[QUOTE]

@the raindog

You don’t have to trust them. I don’t either. Furthermore, in my hundreds of posts here I’ve never appealed to tradition. In this thread alone I’ve been critical of Christian tradtions and teachings. Did you miss that?

I was responding specifically to this post

If some church council somewhere, sometime, voted against reincarnation it’s because **they had the good sense **to see it had no biblical basis, was contrary to the teachings of God from time immemorial and was an affront before God.

I guess your clarification means that although you don’t trust them you happen to agree with them on this point. Fair enough. I think you can understand my reading it as a defense of said council.

There is some irony to that. I did not appeal to tradtion, you did. My interest here is seeing that the bible is given an accurate hearing. I have little interest in tradition, but even less interest in new age, feel good religious permutations of the clear and unambiguous teachings of Christ, and the bible as a whole.

So you understand where I’m coming from, I am not discussing this from the position of theist. I may as well have an academic, or historical interest in the bible account and how it supports reincarnation. I offer you no doctrine or tradition.

Again, fair enough. It appears I made an inaccurate assumption about where you are coming from. My apologies and thanks for clearing it up.

If you want to believe in reincarnation, Cool! If you want to make a case that there is a biblical basis to support it, I’m going to have to ask you to show me.

What I said was, it is not clearly stated or dismissed in the Bible.

Yes, I’d like to see it; rather than links (I have google too) cite and quote the biblical basis of your argument, including context. I hope that they are better researched than what you’re offering us here. Will that be the case?

I refrained because I didn’t want to hijack this thread with this discussion. It’s a proper subject for another thread. I made no pretense of indisputable research so please be careful with your slightly smug tone and I will do the same.

You quoted Matthew 16. Here’s the account in context:

I’m aware of the context but thanks.

For the lurkers, I would appeal to you to log off and read the account for yourself. (the parallel account is at Mark Chapter 8) cosmosdan would have us believe that the bible is indiscernable—that it is so open and contradictory any interpretation is open and presumably acceptable to God. It’s not clear so we have to sort it out. So, if I can find a scrpiture that supports that Jesus can be found in lawn gnomes —no matter how fragile and tenuous, and no matter how many clear unambiguous texts are in contrast to Jesus-as-gnome--------it’s still all good.

This, friend, is a total misrepresentation of my statements and I feel you owe me the same apology I just gave you. You made incorrect assumptions about my attitudes without asking for clarification and now argue against your own misrepresentation of my posts.

Does this account----read with discernment—support reincarnation in any way? How much creative liberty must be taken to make the case? Further, while there are hundreds and hundreds of texts that speak of life and death, why do none of them speak of reincarnation; and would contradict reincarnation?

Just as importantly, even if we take cosmosdan’s point without question, did either Jesus or the apostles validate any view of reincarnation? I submit that even among those who were questioning Jesus’s indentity there was no claim of reincarnation, but even if there was, there was no confusion anong Jesus or the apostles.

You’re putting a lot of words into this subject I was avoiding, to refute what I never claimed. I only pointed out that this passage indicates that reincarnation was believed by people of that era, which you evidently agree with.

With all due respect, I believe you are not really using the scriptures, and to the extent that you do, you are misquoting them. It is true that reincarnation isn’t specifically denounced, but that’s a silly proposition isn’t it? Migrating to Planet Zero after death, or being converted to Soylent Green isn’t denounced either.

Not so silly when considering the history of the Bible and the amount of passages that lean in that direction. Hardly the same as the other things you mentioned.

OTOH, there hundreds and hundreds of scriptures that speak to the origin of the original human couple and the start of the human race, how humans are conceived, live, die, the condition of the dead, the future prospects of the dead, hell, heaven, God’s original purpose for mankind, and our future prospects (that include both life and death) all in rich detail. Hundreds of them.

And every single one of them is in direct contradiction to the teaching of reincarnation.

perhaps in an appropriate thread you might show me a handful. I tend to think it’s just your interpretation which is no more or less valid than my own.

I’ll say this one last time, and then trust that the viewers at home will see through the fog. It is may seem clever to taint me (or anyone esle who challenges you to support your claim) as an apologist or spout they’re relying on tradition, but it is a poor surrogate for responding in a more sunstantive way.

This comment of mine was not infering anything about you in particular. I was responding to this

The world is chock full of religious doctrines that are perversions of the pure teaching of their faith. Christianity is full of these perversions. It’s interesting that you would cite Jesus given his unambiguous and strident views on those who would bring man made traditions and philosophies into the worship of God.

I asked you why it was interesting and you didn’t respond. Instead you accuse me of attempting to taint you or others. Untrue. I was merely pointing out that expressing my opinion and not presenting it as the word or will of God is not inserting man made tradtions and philosophies into the worship of God.
There are those{not nessecarily you} who claim their particular slant on the Bible is not just their opinion but in fact the word and will of God. I would say that qualifies as what you referenced.

While we’re at it, please show me, “We are instructed to try the spiriits to see if they are of God.” I have a specific text in mind. I’d like to see if it is the one you’re thinking of—and more importantly how it makes your overall point.

I’m going to decline for two reasons
1.To not further hijack this thread with scriptural nitpicking.
2. Because you keep making scriptural requests of me while offering none of your own, although I’m told there’s hundreds.

I doubt I’d be surprised. Still, I’d like to be shown. Naturally, I’m interested in how something so absoutely significant is just “hinted” at. Why is that? More importantly, how do I reconcile all those texts that seem to be in direct contradiction to reincarnation?

seem to be is the correct term. What worked for me is learning more about the history of the church and the Bible. That helped me to see the Bible for what it is and what it isn’t. Why might it be hinted at rather than clearly spelled out? One possible explaination is that those who decided to seize control and declare themselves the official church were also the ones who decided which scriptures should be canonized. Could their decision have been influenced by the doctrine they had already declared official?

As to Jesus, there is no burden to find words that denounce reincarnation. What he taught about life and death, the status of those who are dead, the future of mankind, heaven, hell and the like adequately address his views on the human experience. I submit that they do not support reincarnation in any way. Further the bible as a whole doesn’t support reincarnation any way.

And yet not one example offered. Thats fine though. I don’t want to continue this here without the express permission of the OP.

I respect your belief in reincarnation. However I don’t believe any credible case can be made that the bible supports it. (while respecting that you may have other sources and reasons to believe) In that respect, I do not believe you are informed.

I make no pretense at being any kind of Biblical scholar. What seems obvious with even a casual glance is that many people have been studying the scriptures for many years and many generations, and still there is disagreement. Unambiguous you say. Someone should tell them.

I have not offered a single traditional belief, either in this thread or in any other. (that I can recall) So far, the text you offered was a text that indicates some confusion among the population as to who Jesus’s identity was. It was not anything Christ taught.

Isn’t that right?

A long way to go to restate what I clearly stated. It was not presented as something Christ taught, nor did I state that Jesus clearly taught reincarnation.
I’d be glad to tackle the “kingdom of heaven within you” passage you dismissed.

I would be pleased to have you show me where Christ taught reincarnation. I have to go out of town for a few days, and will not be around. I would be willing to contribute to thread, should you wish to start one in a few days, that discusses what the bible has to say about life and death, and how that specifically relates to reincarnation. We can cut through the tradition and see what the bible really has to say.

That’s fine, but according to who? Safe journey.

[cosmosdan]

@Stratocaster

I agree, but some scriptures, including quotes attributed to Jesus, seem pretty unambiguous in warning against making the wrong choices in “this lifetime.” The penalty is severe. Given that, how do you fit these pieces of the puzzle together to produce a picture that concludes what you have? Sincerely interested in any clarification you can provide.

I’m afraid I’d have to see the specific scsriptures to respond correctly. I think I have an inkling of what you mean though.

One thing that happened for me is that as my views began to change I saw the scriptures differently. I saw possibilities I hadn’t seen before and the pieces began to fit together in a way that the focal point of the “big picture” seemed to change.

IN the link you provided how do you inerpret

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, **work out your own salvation **with fear and trembling.

Let’s try a couple of examples. Here’s a classic often quoted in Christian churchs

I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. John 11:25-26

Is there anything about this passage that excludes reincarnation? None that I see. How about this one.

If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Mathew 16:24-25

Anything here that specifically speaks against reincarnation? Again, none that I see.
or

And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:12-13

We might read “endures to the end” as the end of this one lifetime, but is there really any reason to limit it that way?

Any specific verses you were thinking of?

[cosmosdan]

@Stratocaster

cosmosdan, do you dismiss the scriptural support that states that this life’s deeds are inextricably linked to salvation? Or would you say that’s a misreading of these verses? (Or something else completely?) Your logic seems compelling to me, BTW, though it is on conflict with certain things:

A few more comments on this subject. I may have missed the main point you were trying to make.

Passages about this life do not exclude the possibilities of other lives. The point is that the choices we make have consequences and ultimatly it is the choices we are making moment to moment that make up our lives and determine its direction. Jesus was trying to teach those around him that it wasn’t really an observance of certain ceremonial procedures that pleased God. It’s those moment to moment choices. Choose Love. Choose truth.

So we have passages talking about judgement of the choices we make in this life.
Of course. As I said, the choices we make in this life and what we learn or don’t learn determine the specifics of the next life.
In a less than serious metaphor. Have you ever seen “Defending Your Life” with Albert Brooks? In it people go before a panel of judges to decide if they go back to earth for another life or they move forward.

Before his crucifixtion Jesus told his disciples that there was much he didn’t tell them because they weren’t ready. It makes sense that the main thrust of his teachings was to encourage people to seek to love one another in their day to day life. Most of his discussions of judgement were very general and in metaphors . First priority, get them to change their behavior and then we’ll worry about the details of judgement.

You might also consider the source of the Bible as we have it today. Books containing doctrine that was radicaly different than what the counciils had decided was officially accepted were given little if any consideration. When the church became the official state sanctioned religion they began to persecute and murder those who taught anything they declared to be false doctrine. If you’re interested do a little reading on the Gnostic gospels and the Nag Hammadi Library. The church made a great effort to destroy the vast writings of the Gnostics but some survived.
Also

[Trust]

While I do not believe in reincarnation, I must admit that reincarnation would allow certain answers to tough questions make more sense. However, this proposes two incredibly terrible side effects.

1. People will justify judging others based on their “past lives experience”. This is a huge mistake since we simply have no clue where the blame lies (if there is even such a thing as blame in this case).

2. If there is no reincarnation then this is the only life we have to live.

It also proposes very difficult questions such as how there are the number of conscious beings alive today vs. the very few conscious beings first started at the beginning of the world. If we started with x beings, there would only be x number of beings in different forms today. I have not researched this very much so I am sure you (cosmosdan) are much more knowledgable in this area. My particular reason for not believing in reincarnation is because the reason for reincarnation would imply karma. With belief in Christ, karma is not what I consider truth.

[cosmosdan]

@Trust

While I do not believe in reincarnation, I must admit that reincarnation would allow certain answers to tough questions make more sense. However, this proposes two incredibly terrible side effects.

1. People will justify judging others based on their “past lives experience”. This is a huge mistake since we simply have no clue where the blame lies (if there is even such a thing as blame in this case).

2. If there is no reincarnation then this is the only life we have to live.

It also proposes very difficult questions such as how there are the number of conscious beings alive today vs. the very few conscious beings first started at the beginning of the world. If we started with x beings, there would only be x number of beings in different forms today. I have not researched this very much so I am sure you (cosmosdan) are much more knowledgable in this area. My particular reason for not believing in reincarnation is because the reason for reincarnation would imply karma. With belief in Christ, karma is not what I consider truth.

INteresting questions. PLease post them again when I start the thread and I will attempt to answer them.