Does God require understanding?

Great Debates
1

Well, I was having a conversation with a friend’s younger sister, who happens to consider herself the white sheep of her family because she is “saved.”

Yes, she’s a Christian. I have nothing against Christians. She is, however, a profoundly ignorant one.

Just for effect, the circumstances were: I was very proud to have gone to see Rudy Giuliani speak on Wednesday night at my university. (He gives a great lecture.) I mentioned this fact. She had NO idea who he was.

NONE.

But I digress.

We turned, through the question of why God allowed 9/11 to happen (“It’s explained in Revelations somewhere. I never looked it up.”). She denied that the Gods of the Old and New Testament behaved differently, then rationalized it by saying Jesus was around for the New Testament, so he changed the way we perceived things. (Jesus was ALWAYS around, or such is my understanding.) Then, I casually mentioned Job.

She has never heard of Job.

I can understand not knowing Malachi. I can understand not knowing what’s in Leviticus. But geez… EVERYONE knows Job. Right? RIGHT?!

So this struck the question in my mind: It is my understanding that many sects believe that all that is required to gain entrance to heaven is to believe that Jesus is the savior. Does this entail an understanding of what one is believing? That is to say, can Nicole get into heaven even though she has practically no conception of what’s IN the Bible?

It seems wrong that she could. However, if understanding IS required, would a God who describes Himself as benevolent deny entrance into heaven to someone who is incapable of understanding?

Someone enlighten me, here.

2

John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work
not an answer, I can’t speak for her or her religion. But, what I highlighted seems to me to show that Christians should have a working knowledge of the ENTIRE Bible.

3

Okay.

That does seem a shade cut-and-dry to me, though, and doesn’t satisfy me because it seems to preclude the possibility of salvation for someone with a profound mental handicap, so I’m curious as to what the faith would say.

4

hmmm… I haven’t thought of that before. I’m not sure that the Bible even addresses that issue. I’ll have to look up some stuff on my CD-Roms and some books. I’ll post whether I find an answer or not. But, it may be a while. Anyone else got ideas?

5

“Job” ?

[sub]just kidding[/sub]

6

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to [his] wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy

Deuteronomy 30:19
I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring
This seems to show that God views children according to the principle of family merit. By family merit is meant the holiness that God credits, or imputes, to minor children who are obedient, to the extent that the child is unaccountable.

In the case of metal retardation, or being mentally handicapped or challenged (I’m not trying to offend anyone, please forgive me if I do), the degree of retardation would clearly be a determining factor (IMHO), since some of such children remain with the mentality of a four- or five-year-old even when fully grown. The subject may be able to grasp certain basic teachings of God’s Word and repeat these when asked. He (or she) may be obedient to the parents and abstain from doing certain things that have been pointed out as wrong and contrary to God’s will.

But is the child (or challenged adult) able to make personal decisions, able to decide from his own mind and heart (not that of the parents) the course in life he wishes to take? Is he capable of comprehending and seeking a personal relationship with God, one that is not dependent upon his parents? Is he able to stand before any judicial body, heavenly or profane, accountable for any wrongdoing or sin he may commit?

If not, then such child is evidently not in position to be considered saved but would continue under family merit in God‘s eyes, counted by him as “holy” in that sense.

This is as much as I was able to find. And the interpretation is my own, not any Church or organization. So, I can’t speak for any Christian denomination. Maybe a priest or preacher will get online and explain an official Church (whichever one they are) doctrine. I just posted what I found in the Bible and my take on it. Right or wrong, it’s what I got out of it.

7

should have said " …be considered saved on their own merit, but would…"

sorry

8

Hmmm. I seem to keep repeating this verse time and time again. Then again, it is at the core of my Christianity along with the verses that follow it. Actually, I’m going to back up a bit and give the full context, adding a bit of emphasis.

Matthew 22:34-40

If you look at the way Jesus taught, by using parables, among other things, I see clear evidence that he expects us to think, reason, and understand. I also assume that Christ realizes that different human beings have different abilities, so someone with a mental handicapped would not be handicapped in terms of his or her Christianity. Making the effort is what counts, not how well we succeed.

I also figure that if you truly love something, if it really matters to you, you want to learn as much about it as possible. This applies whether it’s following Christ, programming a computer, loving another person, or playing an instrument. To say simply, “I love” then shut off comes across to me as shallow and incomplete. Then again, I’m biased towards intellectualism and learning.

There are some people who don’t want to think about abstractions, and who find thinking about them difficult. This is no bias against them – I don’t care if the guy who fixed my furnace a few weeks ago undertands abstractions. I’m glad he fixed my very concrete furnace! There are also people who think it’s wrong to question Scripture, or, I suspect, even study it too deeply because that could lead to questioning it. Those people might consider what we call “ignorance” to be a state of grace. Even I can see the appeal of being told what to do, what to think, and what to believe, even though I could only put up with it for a few hours at most. Fundamentalism has a lot of appeal for such people, and they believe they are better Christians for it.

Ace, you’re probably not going to change your friend’s sister’s mind. You could wind up damaging her faith or being accused of being in league with evil. I have a friend who was a Fundamentalist Christian for several years and even managed to believe in a 7-day creation for about a month. Until I can get him to de-lurk on this board, I’ll tell you what he told me. Someone who is a Fundamentalist is very attached to that mindset and will fight being pried loose from it. Pointing out their ignorance probably won’t work. They really believe everything outside their beliefs is sinful. I’ve had a couple encounters recently myself which back this up. Whether you choose to enter this battle is up to you, but speaking as someone who’s played Don Quixote for years, this is an awfully big windmill.

CJ

9

Ahh, just tell her to get a haircut and find a new…

Ahem.

…Job.

Er, :slight_smile:

10

For a change (;)), I agree with cjhoworth on this. God most certainly wants and requires us to study his word, and to use our minds to the fullest of our abilities.

I bolded that part specifically to address your question about mentally handicapped people. If you don’t have the mental faculty to understand anything deeper than “Jesus loves me,” then that’s what’s required for you. If you have the intellect of Einstein, then it’s likely you’ll be required to have a much deeper understanding of God. This depends, of course, on opportunity. If Einstein had become a Christian 17 minutes before he died, then obviously he’s not responsible for as deep an understanding as somebody of average intelligence who had been a Christian all his life, like Billy Graham.

[Luke 12:47-48]

11

When CJ and Joe Cool agree, what more can I say than “Me too!!” :slight_smile:

12

I like that reasoning, CJ & JC. Makes sense.

13

If all one has is a brain stem for a brain it is god {if god exists} who is responsible for one’s inability to comprehend.

Then how can this god ask more of you then the capacity that s/he created you with?

A god that requires understanding from her/his creation has to provide that creation with the necessary means to that understanding, which in many instances is not the case.

And what does god require an understanding about? God?

Isn’t it just a little conceited and narrow to create beings so they can understand you? It is actually quite pathetic

14

i think a lot of religious leaders want dumb followers. some people are content to be dumb as long as they are told it’s OK.

there is a parable about a master giving 3 servants money and one servant buried it and the master said he was incompetent. God gave us brains. if we bury them God is not letting us into heaven.

Dal Timgar

15

Personally, I’d at least ask her how she can be so ignorant of the Bible. I mean, she has never heard of JOB???

16

I reply that all Christianity is a beliefe that there is a GOD. We only believe that there is an after-life because we need to have something to believe in after we are DEAD. However there are people we believe to be so “pure” as JESUS that we have no recourse but to follow in his wisdom and life actions. I believe that he was a person that believed in only being the best that he could be - he had several chances to FUCK up in his life - we all will blame the devil for are SHIT actions, but does that justify what we have done??? NO!!! We all should do and try our BEST! But people normally think that nothing matters - that I’m just a peon in this human race, but in fact we all make a difference, not only in others but mostly in OURSELVES - which MAKES THE MOST DIFFERENCE OF ALL!!!..I 0NLY ASK THAT YOU MAKE THE BEST OF YOUR LIFE! AS I WILL ONLY DO WITH MINE!

(disclaimer: this was not written by sqweels, but by his friend Aimee)

17

I posit that this thread was about the alleged Christian God, and not a place for debate about the metaphysical nature of the world. Particularly, it was also not for ill-informed claims about the Bible or the nature of Christianity.

18

So, back to your OP, Ace309, it seems a consensus of sorts that God is a God of Justice and Power and does require obedience but that He also is a God of Love and Wisdom in that He also makes allowances for any shortcomings we may have.

19

So… let me ask another question in extension. Does God’s forgiveness, as Nicole so eloquently told me the other day, include forgiveness for not making any effort to read the Bible?

That seems dangerously Pascal-esque to me.

I’m also working off of the assumption, btw, that Pascal’s Wager doesn’t “count” for salvation.

20

I always thought that God was beyond our ability to understand? What you seem to be saying is that knowledge of God’s past actions is required for salvation.

This also brings up another issue. What about people who do not believe everything in the bible? What about people who believe that there is a god, and love him, but are skeptical of the events described in the bible? Should they be damned?

And what if some of the things in the bible didn’t happen? Do those who believe them (and thus have a faulty understanding of God) get sent to hell too?