I’m a little unclear on the concept, so please enlighten me about the biblical God.
Wrath is a sin.
God is without sin.
Yet, God’s wrath is mentioned numerous times in the bible.
When God is wrathful, is God commiting a sin? Does God’s rules not apply to God?
FYI, my best guess right now of the answer is: “Yes, God is wrathful, but God is special, so God gets away with it. And let’s not call it a sin when God does it.”
Is it? I can’t find any (in a brief glance through) reference to anger being sinful - indeed, Ephesians says “In your anger, do not sin”. In other words, when you get angry, be careful not to comit a sin (because your blood is up and you may do/say something that you wouldn’t otherwise…
Grim
Stop taking the Bible so seriously.
Depends on how you define it, I guess.
Actually, the Greek is even more explicit - “orgidzesthe kai meh hamartanete”, or “Be angry and do not sin”. (NB “and” and not “but” - reinforcing the idea that there’s no contradiction between getting angry and not sinning).
The context is important. Paul has just urged his correspondents to eschew lying and to speak the truth with their neighbours (as they are members one of another). He goes on immediately to tell them not to let the sun go down on their anger and to give no place to the devil (diabolo).
[Ephesians 4: 25-27]
Exodus 20
13 - You shall not murder.
Genesis 7
20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.
22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
Whoops.
In fact, I recall God doing a fair amount of killing in the bible. He gets pissed off about something and goes all Ted Bundy.
The word in Galatians is different (thumoi - NB plural) and means bursts of anger, or perhaps rages. It’s clear Paul is getting at different things in each context.
Touché!! Although “anger” in that passage is translated as “fits of rage”, “ill temper” or “outbursts of anger” in other versions, so it does seem to be a particular expression of anger that is being condemned here… your link has some interesting thoughts:
The implication of which is that God, being righteous, does have the “right” to be angry, as he is the only one who is in a position to judge…
As for the killing/murder argument, I suppose the counter would be that God created (gave) life and therefore he alone has the right to take it away.
Grim
The Ten Commandments are not addressed to God. Hence God doing something which, if done by a human, would be a contravention of the ten commandments is not a contravention of the ten commandments.
Sin is generally defined as acting contrary to the will of God. Given that, it seems hard to see how God could sin.
Does anything seem wrong or “off” about a God that wants us to follow rules that God does not follow?
Hey. God has capacities that we don’t. Like omnipotence. And omniscience. And being the creator of all things, and the source of all love and happiness. He’;s not like us.
You have capacities that, say, cats don’t. You hold yourself and cats to different standards. Why should you hold God to your standard?
Besides, remember the Old Testament is a Covenant. If you want God to observer your side of the covenant, you have to be prepared to observe his side of the Covenant. Are you?
There was a short discussion on the beeb last night between a cardinal, a member of the muslim people of britain and an oxford professor. The question surrounded why god would let disasters and mass murder occur (could be deemed anger / righteous anger?). The professor said a) he doesn’t exist or b) he does and he’s malicious. The cardinal was not terribly eloquent (or just not quick on his feet) and essentially said we can never know his thoughts and look what he gave us. The muslim said this is not the only world. IMO of the religious answers that was the best as it goes to the core of faith.
BTW The Controvert nice op.
I want my kids in bed by 8:30 each night, even though I myself don’t want to follow that rule. Am I off?
Zev Steinhardt
Murder != killing.
While all murder is killing, not all killing is murder.
Zev Steinhardt
Do you not make rules for your kids that you don’t follow?
Sigh…Zev beat me to the punch. That’s what I get for responding before I’ve read the entire thread.
The rules for the Creator and for the creature need not be the same.
For example, God repeatedly tells His people not to sit in judgment over each other’s salvation, for He is their judge.
Second, any sin is actually a perversion of a positive concept. Pride is the overweening overemphasis of self-worth and self-assurance. Lust is the selfish gratification of sexual desire, which God pronounced good in the very first chapter of Scripture. And so on.
Righteous anger is morally right, by definition. It’s just that it’s extremely difficult for human beings to achieve righteous anger which is not adulterated by hatred, wrath in the sin sense, etc.
God does not sin, by definition – what He deems as morally right, is in fact morally right, because He is the one who created the moral standards by which we judge whether something is right or wrong.
To use a homely analog, the umpire can’t be wrong. If he calls it a strike, it’s a strike even if it bounced off the ground 10 ft. in front of home plate.
There is a really unusual statement by C.S. Lewis in his essay We Have Cause To Be Uneasy. He starts out on the Moral Law and concludes that “the Being behind the universe” is intensly interested in right conduct - honesty, unselfishness, good faith dealings, etc. He then goes on to say that if you don’t follow this law God will disapprove and it won’t do you any good to argue that you should be excused because God is good in the sense of being forgiving. His final comment in the section is that “unless the power behind the world really and unalterably detests this sort of behaviour [greed, dishonesty, etc.], then He cannot be good.”
That last statement by Lewis leaped out at me because it implies that Lewis thought that there is a higher law that God must follow in order for us to consider Him good.
Plus, he makes all the ladies smile with delight.
Only inasmuch as you want your children in bed by 8:30. Loosen up and let 'em stay up until 9:00.
And in answer to the OP: You pretty much nailed it when you said, “FYI, my best guess right now of the answer is: ‘Yes, God is wrathful, but God is special, so God gets away with it. And let’s not call it a sin when God does it.’” Basically if you believe that God exists, then he can’t very well be sinning when he does whatever he might desire. Conversely, if you don’t believe, then the bible is full of instances wherein God does some pretty horrible things, yet seems to get a pass. Downside there is, you gotta believe that God is el queso grande to give any credence to the bible.
What? No carousing?!
Damn.