As noted above, Christianity has accomodated exemptions for “express law” for centuries now. “Thou shalt not kill” – but executing criminals is okay, war is okay, and self-defense is okay.
Christ told his followers to turn the other cheek. Christians aren’t very good at that.
Express Law can be interpreted loosely. Religions are really good at making up justifications for changing their minds.
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Let’s just sum up the thread this way: If you were gay, would you feel safer in America, or a Muslim-majority country selected at random?
I’m not Muslim, but I’ll give it a try:
“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)
"Say to the disbelievers [that is, atheists, or polytheists, namely those who reject God] “To you, your beliefs, to me, mine” (109:1-6)
“If thou dost stretch thy hand against me to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah” (Al-Ma’ida 5:28)
“Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well - you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong - you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.” [Al-Tirmidhi #1325]
“Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.” (5:69)
“The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve.” (18:29)
“So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.” (4:90)
“And serve God and do not set up anything with Him, and be kind to the parents, and the relatives, and the needy, and the neighbour who is of kin, and the neighbour next door, and the friend far away, and the traveller, and those who are still dependent. God does not like the arrogant, the boastful.” (4:36)
“The true servants of the Gracious One are those who walk upon the earth with humility and when they are addressed by the ignorant ones, their response is, Peace;” (25:63)
“He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you on account of your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.”(60:8)
There are many, many more.
Now the answer is clear; in the past, the answer would have been some Muslims countries. In the 15th century, Jews were probably much safer in Muslim empires than in Christian Europe.
Turning the other cheek is an act of defiance against tyranny so I’m not sure where you’re going with this. So yes, self defense is OK.
Sharia is express law. Christianity has no such codification. Since you referred to the Judaic 10 commandments incorporated into Christianity that is a code of conduct and not a judicial system. There are no penalties assigned to the sins.
I’m not sure where you think you’re going with this argument. It doesn’t explain away the endless number of Islamic terrorist groups or the never ending attacks they commit around the world. No other major religion is experiencing this phenomena. No other religion goes bat shit crazy over a cartoon. Yet somehow you want to argue that gay people arrested/killed under Sharia law is not based on the religion that created it.
I asked you for a cite regarding your statement: “What about “express laws” that, according to the peaceful Muslims, disallow mistreatment of homosexuals?”
Your response didn’t mention homosexuality at all. There is nothing to counter the statements by Mohammad that it’s a sin punishable by death.
Sure there is – “be kind to the parents, and the relatives, and the needy, and the neighbour who is of kin, and the neighbour next door, and the friend far away, and the traveller, and those who are still dependent”, “The true servants of the Gracious One are those who walk upon the earth with humility and when they are addressed by the ignorant ones, their response is, Peace;”, “He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you on account of your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just.”
Read “literally”, all this can be summed up as “be good, kind, and peaceful to others”. There’s nothing in these verses that exempts homosexuals from good, kind, and peaceful treatment. Peaceful Muslims “literally” interpret these passages to mean that everyone, including homosexuals, must be treated kindly and peacefully.
Still waiting for an answer to this question:
Why are Jews, overall, just as statistically peaceful and tolerant (or very likely more so – American Jews are way, way more tolerant of homosexuality than American Christians) than Christians? Is it because the Old Testament is more peaceful and tolerant scripture than the New Testament? Or is it because of other cultural and societal reasons?
So, you can’t provide a cite.
They’re not. Jews and Christians aren’t tossing gay people off roofs. Nor are they killing people over cartoons, movies or books. Nor are Hindus, or Buddhists.
I provided several that said to be kind, good, and peaceful to all people. Homosexuals are, literally, included in “all people”. Those are “literal” interpretations that mandate kindness and peacefulness to homosexuals.
Pretend it’s not the same sort of “literal” interpretation as any other, if you like. But it really is.
You didn’t answer my question. Why are Jews more peaceful and tolerant than Christians? Jews are much more statistically accepting of homosexuals than Christians are. Is it because the Old Testament is more peaceful and tolerant than the New Testament? Or is it some other reason?
There is not one word in those verses that even alludes to homosexuality. Some Islamic scholars think this one might:
Quran (7:80-84) - “…For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds… And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)” -
There are a few others, and some more in the Hadiths.
Some subset of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world choose to to interpret these passages as not meaning what they appear to mean. On account of this fact, the rest of the world is asked to pretend that the larger share of that 1.6 billion isn’t reading the Quran and Hadiths as they have always read them.
Here is one summary of how various forms of Sharia law view the practice:
“While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful”. http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/islam
Note the heartwarming lack of forcible brimstone. Sharia is not, after all, without mercy.
The blind spot that doesn’t recognize that CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH scriptures also say the same thing must be huge. No, MODERN Christians and Jews in Western countries no longer put homosexuals to death. I would suggest that it’s the fact that no Western country is an actual theocracy that prevents that, not some sort of kinder, gentler version of those religions. Give the evangelicals control over our laws and see how long it is before LGBT are standing in front of firing squads.
Judaism, like Islam, has a code of law, Lev. 20:13 says to execute men for having sex with men, and yet my synagogue advertises itself on its web page as an LBGTQ safe zone. As iiandyiiii said, interpretation is everything.
Gay rights is a recent thing. When I was a kid, it was a self-evident truism that gay sex is gross and perverted. If other cultures aren’t quite up to speed yet, yes, fight for justice, but let’s try not to be self-righteous hypocrites. We haven’t been on the right side of this issue that long.
The U.S. has only banned racial discrimination for about fifty years. Islam has condemned it for centuries. So in that way, they were ahead of us.
The Muslims I know are respectful and extraordinarily generous. I’m disinclined to label their faith as inherently morally degenerate because of the actions of some assholes, or some bad quotes.
Annnd what story in the Koran, that folks might also remember from the Bible, would this passage be referring to?
CMC fnord!
They all do – they all refer to people, in one way or the other. Homosexuals are people. “Literally” interpreting those verses means that one must treat everyone, including homosexuals, with kindness and peace.
Indeed, but Christians and Jews didn’t re-think their views just because the Good Lord chose the 1960’s as the best decade to revise and extend his scripture. People stood up and spoke up.
Speaking up is a good thing, and the LGBT, secular, female, progressive muslims who still live under theocratic rule gain nothing when we silence ourselves for fear of offending those few muslims among us who have already escaped.
If you wish to have people take your pronouncements on Islam seriously, you should probably be accurate regarding its basic teachings.
What part of " He is a prophet in the Muslim religion" are you disagreeing with?
That’s very obvious.
I never attempted to “explain away” anything. You’re being remarkably obtuse here. You, yourself, have never come to grips with the vast majority of Muslims who are good, honest, peaceful, hard-working, sincere, devout, and good neighbors. You keep pointing to the minority who are terrorists, but you have failed to show why this should be generalized to be held against all of Islam.
You aren’t going to quote your entire remark?