“It is interesting to note that Israel’s “Law of Return” (under which any Jew may immigrate to and become a citizen of Israel) confers Israeli citizenship automatically, without the immigrant having to apply for it, attend any ceremony, or swear any oath of allegiance. The Israeli law may originally have been written this way to encourage American Jews to move to Israel; they could, in theory, argue that they had not explicitly requested Israeli citizenship and were thus still entitled to keep their US citizenship.”
So I was wondering, what defines a Jew under Israeli law? How do you prove you’re a Jew? Does religious conversion to Judaism count? Could I convert to Judaism and then automatically be considered an Israeli citizen? What if your mother’s mother was ethnically Jewish, but converted to Catholicism? Are you still considered an Israeli citizen by ethnicity?
Additionally, if you live in the U.S., there is no document that I’m aware of that “proves” you’re Jewish or any other ethnicity for that matter. To have such a policy would smack of racism. So what’s the scoop?
The State of Israel recognizes people who have undergone Orthodox conversion as Jews, to which the Law of Return applies.
You prove that you are a Jew by getting the rabbinate to certify you as such. Bar mitzvahs and conversions both come with documentation, which sufficies.
As for the question regarding your mother, note there is no such thing as ethnically Jewish. If she was born a Jew, then she is, halachically speaking, Jew even if she turns away from Judaism (converts to Catholicism) and as such her children are to be recognized as Jews as well. Again, you use the term “ethnicity” improperly, as there is no Jewish ethnicity, and when discussing Israel this is very very apparent- the (still) existing divides between Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, without even mentioning Jews of other ethnicities (Ethiopian Jews, etc.), should make that apparent.
Ok, so the question of proof is: what is your religious belief? If you are a Jew by religion, the state of Israel recognizes you as a Jew?
The statement you make in the second paragraph is confusing. What if the woman “wasn’t” born a Jew, for example someone born and orphaned, adopted by a Jewish family, converted as a child, grew up as a Jew, and then decided to become Catholic as an adult? Then if that woman has children, are they automatically considered Jews even if she isn’t?
Does that mean if Jewish conversion even occurs temporarily somewhere among your maternal ancestors and you have documentation to prove it, you are automatically considered a Jew by Israel? Is there a limit on the number of generations between this documented conversion and the current applicant’s eligibility?
From your answer, one might conclude that someone who knows their family was Jewish by tradition, but has no written proof of a religious nature, (not participating formally for generations) cannot claim citizenship under Israeli law. Is this correct?
I suspect that you’d need Rabbis to argue that one. Logically, which doesn’t mean that it’s correct, it depends on when the children are born (or conceived?). So if the mother is a Jew at the time, then the kids are:
Born - Not a Jew (assuming that the mother wasn’t Jewish ).
Conversion (or whatever you’d call it) - A Jew.
Conversion to Catholism - Not a Jew.
From an Arab site palastinefacts.com, but one that is not grinding any axes on this issue from what I can see:
So it seems that you don’t actually need to be Jewish in any definite way.
There are links at the end on that article to the original Law and other items.
There would be no distinction between a convert to Judaism and a person born a Jew. As far as Jewish law is concerned there is no distinction or difference.
Does that mean if Jewish conversion even occurs temporarily somewhere among your maternal ancestors and you have documentation to prove it, you are automatically considered a Jew by Israel?
You would be considered a Jew according to Jewish law and therefore by Israel. IIRC Israel has allowed some Russians with less than a maternal lineage to use the law of return.
** Is there a limit on the number of generations between this documented conversion and the current applicant’s eligibility?**
I don’t know - but, the reasoning behind the maternal lineage is that since the mother influence in child rearing is greater, her influences will be shown in the children. So even though she may not be a practicing Jew if her parents were then some of those values will be passed on. At some point in time that influence will be watered down. However, if you look at some of the lost Jewish communities that still held on to some religious customs after many years.
I also don’t see what the big deal is about the law of return. If you have a British or Irish parent or relative you can claim British or Irish citizenship. The proof may vary by country but it is hardly unique to Israel.
Israel may have written the LoR as a result of the Holocaust (after incidents like the St Louis, and the Britsih White Paper in Palestine). Remember that prior to the middle of the 20th century Jews were not permitted full or partial citizenship in many countries. If you want to be a British citizen you have to be British. If you want to become a citizen of the Jewish state you have to be Jewish. How do you know if you are Jewish - the people in the country you were living in would be kind enough to let you know - maternal lineage or not.
The first is that Judaism does not, as far as I know, recognize a conversion away from Judaism. Therefore, if you’re a Jew and you convert to Catholicism, you are an apostate Jew who has turned away from his faith, but you are still a Jew. I don’t see why this wouldn’t apply to converts to Judaism as well as those who were born Jjewish.
More importantly and fully FTR, PalestineFacts.org is a far-right Zionist site. It’s not ran by Arabs, and some of its pages are filled with propaganda that they have the gall to call “facts.”
If I am not mistaken, Messianic Jews (Jews that recognize Jesus as the Messiah) don’t fall under the law of return. They are not considered Jews by the Israeli government.
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*Originally posted by adirondack_mike *
[I also don’t see what the big deal is about the law of return. If you have a British or Irish parent or relative you can claim British or Irish citizenship. The proof may vary by country but it is hardly unique to Israel.
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Israel’s law of return sounds particularly magnanimous, more so than of the countries you mentioned. You can claim citizenship by ancestry in many European countries only under more strict guidelines: some require that the father be a citizen at the time of your birth. If he became an U.S. citizen before you were born you are not automatically considered a [insert country here] citizen at birth. So one would have to prove that the father or grandfather was a citizen at the time of the child in question’s birth.
It depends, SnoopyFan. A Jewish-born person who decides to become a messianic (e.g. joining Jews for Jesus) is still a Jew, but is not considered to be practicing Judaism. Jews consider messianic Jews to be practicing Christianity. But being religious is not a requirement for the Law of Return, only being a Jew is.
Friedo, but that takes me back to my original post, what defines a “Jew” under the scenario you presented?
According to Bugg’s definition, which seems to be the most coherent it’s “Once a Jew, always a Jew”. If one of your ancestors was a convert to Judaism and you can prove it, you’re considered Jewish. So you may not have to be religious, but one of your ancestors would have to have been.
Rusalka, that’s pretty much it. “Jew” is defined by Jewish law. Basically, that means the sole requirement is being born to a Jewish mother or converting to Judaism.
So I came across a troubling implication for which I started another thread.
If, as I stated in my OP, Israel confers citizenship automatically, Jews and others with dual citizenship would be barred under new U.S. security policy from some types of public service:
“It is interesting to note that Israel’s “Law of Return” (under which any Jew may immigrate to and become a citizen of Israel) confers Israeli citizenship automatically, without the immigrant having to apply for it, attend any ceremony, or swear any oath of allegiance. The Israeli law may originally have been written this way to encourage American Jews to move to Israel; they could, in theory, argue that they had not explicitly requested Israeli citizenship and were thus still entitled to keep their US citizenship.”
That’s simply incorrect. In order to obtain Israeli citizenship a Jew must “express his desire to settle in Israel,” and the citizenship can be denied if the government has reason to believe the person is engaging in “activity directed against the Jewish people” or “is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.”
The law of return and who it applies to is a politcal minefield.
Basically it applies to anyone who is meets the definition pf Jewish as laid down by the Cheif Rabbi and it only applies to people who formally express a desire to live in Israel. Other proscriptions apply howver, for example if you are a fugitive you can’t use the right of return.
So being Jewish does not automatically give you Israeli citzenship, the only people automatically given Israeli citizenship are the offspring of Jewish citizens of Israel (the offspring of Arab, etc. citzens of Israel have the automatic right to citzenship of Israel, but it is not automatically given).
Good account of the situation, except, IMO, for the two bolded parts above. To wit:
The rabbis would like more control over the question of “who is a jew?” If we look at friedo’s quote of the relevant passage above - “4B. For the purposes of this Law, “Jew” means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.” - it should be noted that several attempt have been made by religious parties to change the conversion clause to “has become converted to Judaism according to Halakha” - Halakha being the accepted codification of Jewish Religious Law. All these attempts have, so far, failed. as you said, this is a veritable political minefield.
I’m pretty sure you’re wrong here. The child of a citizen is entitled to citizenship. Period. You may be thinking of cases where the government tried to cause grief to non-resident non-Jewish citizens’ children, when those tried to re-settle in Israel as citizens. In all these cases, I believe the gov. was essentially thrown out of court.
But I have been known to be blind to these things before. If you have evidence for any specific cases, I would be interested in seeing it. Please don’t ask me for my evidence, since it’s hard to prove a negative (That is, I’m saying that I know of no cases where Arab citizens’ children have had to sue the state for citizenship. This can be refuted (by you) but not proven (by me))
Your rignt on that, but I think the two defintions do fit broadly but not in all cases, the Falasha being an obvious case of a group that have the right of return, but the Cheif Rabbi does not necessrily define as Jewish.
What I am saying is that the children of non-Jewish Israeli citzens have automatic entitlement to Israeli citizenship, but it’s not automatically confered, I’ll have to check the exact details tho’ as I have defintely read this but I can’t remember where. (I’ve only heard of one case where there has been any issue with actually obtaining citizenship)
).