Does it always make sense to rely on long-term incarceration as the means of justice?

That sounds like a Really Bad Idea. Consider that for a second: it would in short order turn into a savage society where the people who were unable to physically dominate the stronger ones would either be raped or killed. And don’t even believe for a second that it would be a democracy—can you say the age of knights and castles all over again—just as bad as it was the first time? And if you included women (or if some snuck in somehow), what about kids? Do the criminals ever get out? How do you find them, let alone integrate them back into society. It would seem a much more humane and reasonable scenario to put them all in front of a firing squad.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: Also, contrary to popular belief, Australia had rules and guards and such (mostly; naturally some ran off, and nobody bothered looking, of course).

I just wanted to add that I’ve heard that kind of suggestion before, and I don’t think most people really consider the full implications. The natural human state is an alpha male dominated hierarchy based on violence and repression as the social rule (think of any mafia movie you’ve seen and compare the mob structure to feudalism); it is only though gradual societal evolution that it becomes better. This kind of thing is like hitting the reset button and expecting to come out with Libertopia.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

A horrible and cruel idea. You’d create a living approximation of Hell.

I’ve got news for you. The rules and the guards aren’t the problem in prison - the criminals are the ones creating the problems. The guards aren’t murdering and raping and assaulting and stealing from the prisoners - the other prisoners are the ones doing that. The rules and the guards are there to prevent those things.

And your solution is to eliminate that protection. Give each prisoner a knife and tell him “Better learn to use this quick. You’re going to have to kill to survive because everyone else in there will kill you first if they can. And by the way, we’re not giving you any food or shelter or medical care either. Steal what you need from the others. But watch out because they’ll all be trying to steal whatever you’ve got. My advice is don’t sleep. Good luck.”

Not all of them—some of the guards are really corrupt and smuggle things into the prisons. Still, better to have corrupt guards than none at all. I stand by the statement that it would be much more humane to shoot the people destined to be shipped to this place than to go through with it.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Except they come from the outside world and are used to civilization - so the first order of business would probably be to mirror it, wouldn’t it ? The Wild West was, well, wild, but it wasn’t a return to feudalism either.

And as Little Nemo said, you can’t force rehabilitation past a certain age. If a guy doesn’t grasp why killing or raping is aberrant, you can’t make him understand. There is likely no good solution. Might as well let those who can’t live by modern rules in a place where their own rules are better understood and/or accepted, no ?

But if you insist, fine - have guards in, have general rules. Just let them take part in the system, and let them create something meaningful in an environment that resembles normal life. I believe (perhaps naively ?) that most crimes stem from hopelessness. Give them hope instead of having them stamp plates and stare at the ceiling of a 5x5 cell for slave wages while you look the other way when Big Jimmy and his Burly Boys work him behind the sheds. Let them grow decriminalized hash crops, that’ll mellow them out :slight_smile:

Outside of this, as KnitWit said, the only really efficient way to go at crime is to deal with what creates it upstream. Poverty, endemic violence, racial issues, bad parenting & molestation etc. (and at the other end of society, the sense you’re above the law). Easier said than done, yup. And we need to deal with existing crims for the time being, yup. I ain’t got 12 step solutions for world hunger and peace in the Middle East, either :slight_smile:

And criminals are the ones who reject society’s rules. They couldn’t function in a society which was already up and running and mostly populated by people who supported that society. Why would you expect them to be able to invent a new society from nothing while surrounded by other people with the same lack?

Sorry, but that is naive. Most crimes stem from people thinking that their individual self-interest is more important than everyone else’s. You can’t build a society from a bunch of individuals who each put themselves ahead of society.

On this I agree. You don’t solve the problem of crime in prisons - by the time people get to prison, their problems are almost insurmountable. You’re far better off applying your efforts to solving the problem back when it was just taking root.

They come from a civilization, but the hardcore gang members don’t come from the same civilization you come from. They come from a civilization where you follow the rules of your gang, deal diplomatically or militarily with the other gangs, and treat the government as an entity whose sole purpose is to oppress you. You even pay tribute to the leader in return for protection. Except for the government part, rather like feudal dynasties.

But why are we making Society 2.0 for criminals? If they didn’t adapt to the first one, why is the second going to be any better? I agree that at some point there is no possibility of rehabilitation (I’m not sure it necessarily has to do with age); I don’t see why these people deserve to be set up in another little insulated world.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I don’t see that the prisons change that state of mind any. Except the prison gov. really *is *out there to solely to oppress you :).

What would you guys suggest ?

I don’t think they do, either. It’s debatable whether they help “regular people” criminals or just turn them into the former, too. And I’m not sure what we should do.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I actually work with convicted felons coming out of prison. Currently I work in a 45-day drug rehab facility. Before this I spent a year and a half in a community corrections (halfway house) facility with people coming out of prison and people who violated their probation.

I actually have a much better opinion of the prison system than I did before I started this work. It is a deeply flawed system, but I now can see that it does more good than harm overall. Previously, I often wondered (based on media portrayals and threads like this one) if we wouldn’t be better off with nothing than with what we have now.

The idea that there is no attempt at rehabilitation is false. I understand there isn’t as much rehabilitation in prison as in a halfway house or on parole, but there is some significant attempt to address both criminal thinking patterns and substance use disorders at every stage. Where I’ve worked, it is very significant, and is combined with some efforts to reintegrate the offenders into society as well.

The problem is that rehabilitation is expensive and doesn’t work very well. Many people don’t want to be rehabilitated. With them, we can only hope that they will learn some skills that they will eventually decide to put to use, and maybe give them some sense that they don’t have to live that way. Many people do want to be rehabilitated, but find old habits (especially drug- and alcohol- related habits) hard to break. I support legalizing some drugs, but it wouldn’t make that much difference. Alcohol leads to more crimes (DUIs, domestic violence, assaults, etc.) than any other drug, IME.

There are other problems with rehabilitation, too. Martin Luther King spent time behind bars. What if he had been “rehabilitated”?

Institutionalization is another problem. I meet lots of clients who tell me that prison is a deterrent - that they’ve wasted too much time locked up and never want to go back. I’ve also met lots of them who tell me that being locked up is the best thing that ever happened to them, because it got them drug treatment and forced them to see the consequences of the lifestyle they were leading. But then there are the ones who would much rather sit in a prison than face the greater responsibility and greater expectations (and hence greater opportunity to fail) of a halfway house program. And others who see prison as just another unpleasant but expected part of life, like elementary school, a job you don’t like, paying taxes, or waiting at the DMV, and in fact would gladly risk prison in order to avoid all of those other things. I had one client tell me that he had wanted to go to prison because literally every person he knew had been to prison.

Worst are the ones who are so institutionalized that they can’t adjust to society. The ones who, even after they’re out, will lick their dessert before beginning a meal (so no one else will steal it). These people have no sense of trust, of fellowship, of any ethic beyond survival. They may have the best of intentions, but have a hard time working a job when they see everyone as a potential threat, difficulty having a family when they’ve learned that any sign of emotion or trust is a weakness that will be taken advantage of, and trouble staying sober when just walking down the street makes them anxious and uncomfortable.

That said, the worst cases are rare, at least in my job, and it’s the societal and family problems that are the hardest for most clients to overcome - or to even see the need to overcome. And despite it all, people do turn themselves around. Seldom all at once, but over time and in small ways, people learn from their mistakes and from the opportunities they’re given. I’ve met very few people I would actually consider “bad,” and I’ve met lots of fundamentally good people - even a few of the nicest and best - who simply lack the skills, temperament, judgment, or willpower to consistently make good decisions in their lives. And I have seen people regroup, reassess their lives, and become successful. I love my job, and I love the opportunity it gives me to see people who would otherwise be invisible to me, and to see them in tough situations that reveal their worst - and their best.

Well, in a sense they aren’t - the penal administration doesn’t set out ostensibly to punish or oppress.
However, their job is to make inmates step in line with conditions that are far below what most people would deem “livable”, to force on them rules even more stringent than the ones they already couldn’t follow outside. It’s a natural reaction to object to being confined to a cell, to have your hours and occupations dictated for you every hour of every day, with absolutely no intimacy whatsoever. To shower and shit in public. To be forced to share a bunk with a guy who might just eat his own eyeballs.
And so the guards are forced to assert a even higher level of authority inside than those enforcing the outside rules in order to make the prisonners toe that line, and the means to do so are invariably questionable - whether it’s physical punishment for non compliance, or restricting access to essentials and granting the “priviledge” only to well behaving cons, or further isolation etc…
It’s a bitch of a vicious cycle.

I think the thing is, unless you can guarantee the SWIFT and SURE parts, you have to have a relatively SEVERE punishment to deter people in the times that one of the first two break down.

For example, my safety inspection sticker is a couple of months out of date on my pickup truck. I have no doubt that I’ll eventually get pulled over for that, but I don’t know when. I also don’t really care- there’s a $20 admin fee and having to get it inspected once they catch you. Big deal.

If the fine was $200, I’d have already done it.

You have a lot of false ideas about what prison is actually like. Here’s a quick bit of advice; everything you’ve ever seen about prisons in movies and TV is make-believe.

Not entirely true. The criminal may very well commit more crimes, but only his fellow inmates will suffer the consequences.

Or the guards or other staff.

Confession time: I don’t have any false ideas about what prison was like. I’m an educated professional with no previous criminal history who was put in prison for 17 days on a drunk driving charge. It was a routine, no injuries/no accidents, no hassling the police type of crime.

To some extent I “know whatof I speak” but on the other hand, I’m also very jaded. I spent so much time on such a “minor” charge basically because of an error in my reported bail amount and because I drew the short straw in the system (harsh judge, mean district attorney, idiot defense attorney). And I spent that time not with other drunks, but in the Bay State Correctional Facility with mostly hardened felons. I’m a little white girl with a bachelor’s degree and a career who has never even SEEN cocaine anywhere except on television and who has been more or less privileged all my life. I did NOT do well in that environment and was horrifyingly shocked by it. Strangely enough, the horror of the experience did more to FEED my urge to drink destructively than to stop doing so.

Simply put, it destroyed me.

As an aside, I don’t really think drunk driving is a “minor” crime. It puts peoples’ lives at risk MUCH moreso than, say, posession of drugs, even though those crimes tend to be more harshly punishable. I’m ashamed of myself, and yes, I AM a criminal. The problem is that thinking of myself in those terms is a Very Bad Idea for me.

Right. And I suppose the fear of that, and it’s reality, is part of what leads to the whole Stanford-like outcome/reaction.

I’ve spent well over seventeen years in prison. So I know whatof I speak to some extent as well.

Yeah, I guess that’s the trump card. I’m really sorry.

Little Nemo, so I am to understand that society’s best bet is to take the criminal out of society for a time and hope that he will decide to rehabilitate himself? Or are you saying that most criminals are simply incapable of rehabilitating themselves? What should be done with a criminal who isn’t going to be rehabilitated? Capital punishment, or if not, what lesser punishment?

And KnitWit, what do you think would have been a more effective deterrent to your drunk driving?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris