Does it bug you when people live down to negative stereotypes?

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead]
I fancy myself to be tolerant. I try to judge people on their actions, not their affiliations, from gender to religion. Part of this is remembering that stereotypes don’t apply to many, or most, members of a group. As such, I find it really frustrating when people do act out all the negative images of their race/gender/creed/sexuality.

For example, the aboriginal reserve near my city is having major problems with drug and alcohol binges because the compensation money for the abuses at the residential schools has arrived. This is exactly what many, many people around me expected to happen, just because they were “Indians”–they couldn’t be expected to do anything else. Now they have that much more ammunition against people who don’t deserve a bad reputation, but have one because of a number of idiots.

Has anyone else had this happen? It upsets me, not because it challenges my opinions, but because it seems to reinforce the bigotry around me.
[/QUOTE]

It’s hard to see it as a stereotype if that’s what you grew up around. shrug I don’t want to bring this into GD or Pit territory, but I don’t feel that way because they are Native - I feel this way because people of Native descent where I grew up are primarily involved in the vices you describe. Doesn’t mean I’m racist, or don’t have Native friends, or don’t feel happy for the people that break the vicious cycle. But I also don’t fit into the stereotype of the evil white wo/man who is out to get Natives for all they are worth.

(btw, grew up around PA, and the farther north you get the different it is. Don’t think for a second that what goes on in Saskatoon or south of that is the same as what happens in PA or north of that)

edit: I know I’m going to get pegged for being the person the OP complains about - someone perpetuating a negative stereotype. So no, you aren’t smart for seeing that.

42

[QUOTE=kushiel]
It’s hard to see it as a stereotype if that’s what you grew up around. shrug I don’t want to bring this into GD or Pit territory, but I don’t feel that way because they are Native - I feel this way because people of Native descent where I grew up are primarily involved in the vices you describe. Doesn’t mean I’m racist, or don’t have Native friends, or don’t feel happy for the people that break the vicious cycle. But I also don’t fit into the stereotype of the evil white wo/man who is out to get Natives for all they are worth.

(btw, grew up around PA, and the farther north you get the different it is. Don’t think for a second that what goes on in Saskatoon or south of that is the same as what happens in PA or north of that)

edit: I know I’m going to get pegged for being the person the OP complains about - someone perpetuating a negative stereotype. So no, you aren’t smart for seeing that.
[/QUOTE]

It’s neat to get the perspective of another Saskatchewanian. Personally, I see it as a frequently unfounded stereotype. Sure, I know plenty of native families with problems, but I see tons that are healthy and happy. The same goes for any race. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky in my interactions.

43

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]
Wow, being “cartoonishly feminine” is as bad as date rape now. Or is it date rape that’s no more offensive than being “cartoonishly feminine”?

Seriously, I’m trying to be charitable, but how am I supposed to read that statement?
[/QUOTE]

I think you and I are using the wrong words to try to explain ourselves to each other.

Let’s put it this way- when a flamboyantly gay person struts onto the train with every over-the-top mannerism on display, I really don’t care. I’m a New Yorker. Whether he’s putting on a spectacle for the general public or for his own edification is really no concern of mine- that’s his deal and I’m not even going to look up from my paper for him. Same exact thing when a beach-muscles kid in khakis and a popped collar on his polo shirt and a white baseball cap with his school’s name or his fraternity’s name on it “carries his luggage” onto the train and stands there all flexed and either ogling or inviting people to ogle him. Whether he’s putting on a spectacle for the general public or for his own edification is really no concern of mine either- that’s his deal and I’m not going to look up from my paper for him either.

There are two people who are different from me and pretty “stereotypical,” and I really don’t mind. All kinds to make a world and all that.

Now, let’s posit that, the next stop being my stop, I get up to get off the train and accidentally brush the shoulder of either one of these people.

If my “excuse me” is met with a noncommittal grunt, or a “watch where the hell you’re going,” or even if it’s ignored, then that’s all well and good.

But let’s say my “excuse me” is drowned out by either (a) a shriek of “Bitch, don’t you WATCH where you’re going?” and furious handwaving and “oh-no-you-di-int,” or (b) “what the fuck, douchebag? How about I FUCK you UP? You smudged my Puma, you FUCK!”

Then I equate each of those things. Each representative member of his group is free to be whatever he wants, and it’s really no skin off my back- but when one begins ACTING like one’s MAD Magazine avatar, completely unironically, even if it’s one’s normal mode, I shake my head a little.

Does that make more sense?
[sub]now, if reaction (b) came out of person (a)'s mouth and vice versa, that’d be damn disconcerting[/sub]

44

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]

Examples:
Cowboy hat, western shirt, wrangler jeans, big belt buckle, cowboy boots.
Long mullet, Led Zeppelin shirt
Overly sexy dressing asian girl
Pencil-protector, short sleeved dress shirt, thick glasses
Over-the-top gangsta wear, gold teeth, big bling
All black, ultra goth, disaffected youth.
Complete drama queen gay guy

[/QUOTE]

I didn’t realize the overly-sexy-dressing Asian girl was a stereotype. I wish there were more of those around.

45

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
I didn’t realize the overly-sexy-dressing Asian girl was a stereotype. I wish there were more of those around.
[/QUOTE]

Hah! I was going to say, most of the (East) Asian girls I know dress pretty conservatively. Or they’ll overly dress up, with frilly skirts and heels in sub-zero temperatures. The stereotype among Asians is that Japanese girls tend to dress a bit crazily (as in they’ll take more fashion risks).

Hm. By overly-sexy-dressing, do you mean slutty?

46

Also I have never seen a single person actually wearing a pocket protector, in my entire life, except for on TV. Do they even exist anymore? Is there anyone who still wears them in a non-ironic way?

47

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Does that make more sense?
[/QUOTE]

No, I still have problems with this:

  1. You’re not talking about being “feminine,” you’re talking about being a dick to someone. In your earlier post you complained about feminine gay men, and in this post, you’ve said you have no problems with someone who’s just mannered, but then you have an issue if they scream at you. But screaming at you is completely different. Also, I don’t see why it’s worse if they scream at you in a queeny way versus screaming at you in a fairly gender-neutral way.

  2. You still haven’t explained why femininity is a negative stereotype for gay men. There are troubling undertones in this - are we supposed to simply take for given that behaviour that is considered gender-atypical makes for a negative stereotype?

  3. You haven’t addressed my objections to equating a feminine gender presentation with date rape. Even if you didn’t mean it in a deep way, that the two things could even appear in the same breath is very troubling – it’s grossly pejorative to the one, or grossly trivializing to the other, or both.

48

You can’t live in the real world and not learn to recognize behavior based on general appearance and demeanor.

But to answer the question, I usually brace myself (lower my expectations) and am often disappointed further when lowered expectations aren’t met. And yes, I give everybody a shot at making a good first, second and third impression. The flip side of giving everybody a chance is I’m often rewarded with a new friend. I know people from every economic/social corner of the world (at least my corner of it).

I really miss my old bar (it went under). Truly a place where good people got together.

49

[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Hah! I was going to say, most of the (East) Asian girls I know dress pretty conservatively. Or they’ll overly dress up, with frilly skirts and heels in sub-zero temperatures. The stereotype among Asians is that Japanese girls tend to dress a bit crazily (as in they’ll take more fashion risks).

Hm. By overly-sexy-dressing, do you mean slutty?
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I mean slutty. The stereotype seems to go both ways, either real conservative or real slutty.

Hispanic girls tend to be the same way, especially the first gen ones. Heck, 30 minutes of watching telemundo will show the difference, young and skin-o-licious or old and dowdy. Not much middle ground.

As an aside, an asian girl I work with was pretty far on the slutty side, even within the confines of our uniforms. (Sequinned halter top underneath?) She is now pregnant and gaining weight…she appears rather fashionably lost.

I had more to say, but it seems folks may be getting a bit touchy and I’m teetering on offending.

50

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]

  1. You’re not talking about being “feminine,” you’re talking about being a dick to someone. In your earlier post you complained about feminine gay men, and in this post, you’ve said you have no problems with someone who’s just mannered, but then you have an issue if they scream at you. But screaming at you is completely different. Also, I don’t see why it’s worse if they scream at you in a queeny way versus screaming at you in a fairly gender-neutral way.
    [/QUOTE]

First, I didn’t complain about feminine gay men. You may be confusing me with John DiFool. In fact, if you go back and read my post, I said quite explicitly that I didn’t read it that way. And, if you’ll read what I DID object to, it’s the cartoonishly feminine.

Second- the title of this thread is “Does it bother you when people live down to negative stereotypes?” I’m giving an example of when it bothers me. And it’s not “worse,” it’s just more either laughable or sad, depending on how you look at it.

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]
2) You still haven’t explained why femininity is a negative stereotype for gay men. There are troubling undertones in this - are we supposed to simply take for given that behaviour that is considered gender-atypical makes for a negative stereotype?
[/QUOTE]

Well, I don’t HAVE to explain it. For better or for worse, it IS a negative stereotype. And no, we’re not supposed to take for granted that gender-atypical behavior is negative, but cartoonish behavior is most certainly negative. That Carson guy from Queer Eye and that new “Look Good Naked” show is pretty feminine, but there’s no negative association with that mannerism in my mind, or, I would wager, most of society’s. But he’s not cartoonish.

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]
3) You haven’t addressed my objections to equating a feminine gender presentation with date rape. Even if you didn’t mean it in a deep way, that the two things could even appear in the same breath is very troubling – it’s grossly pejorative to the one, or grossly trivializing to the other, or both.
[/QUOTE]

Because I didn’t equate a feminine gender presentation with date rape. I picked two wildly divergent negative stereotypes and put them in the same sentence. I believe that you are overreacting here.
The thread is about negative stereotypes. I’m Irish-American and I dislike Irish-Americans getting 'faced on St. Patrick’s day. I’m an athlete and I dislike when athletes act entitled by dint of their good fortune to be able to play a game for a living. Walking stereotype Pacman Jones offends me. Busta Rhymes’s refusal to cooperate with the police offends me. LUGs offend me. Pretty much anyone who says “Look at me- Look at ME- LOOK AT ME, I’m DIFFERENT and your discomfort with my being DIFFERENT is because you and society need to EVOLVE!!!” gets under my skin as a mosquito bite on my elbow might.

51

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Because I didn’t equate a feminine gender presentation with date rape.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you did. You said in post 38 that you find “the over-the-top, drama-queeny, cartoonishly feminine homosexual male” to be “as offensive as the date-raping, slack-jawed, sports-first fratboy.” (Emphasis mine.)

In no universe is even the most “cartoonishly effeminate” gay man anywhere near as offensive as committing sexual assault. That you so casually equated the two and didn’t even realize the import of your statement is amazing.

52

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]
In no universe is even the most “cartoonishly effeminate” gay man anywhere near as offensive as committing sexual assault. That you so casually equated the two and didn’t even realize the import of your statement is amazing.
[/QUOTE]

That you so casually ignore the fact that these are STEREOTYPES and thus grossly inflated caricatures of actual archetypes is equally so.

53

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
That you so casually ignore the fact that these are STEREOTYPES and thus grossly inflated caricatures of actual archetypes is equally so.
[/QUOTE]

I can only go by what you say, and you were talking about, indeed this whole thread is about, people living down to stereotypes. I can’t think of a way of living down to a stereotype that one commits date rape other than by committing date rape.

Even if we ignore the entire point of the thread, how could you even say that it’s as gross to you to consider the stereotype of an overly effeminate gay guy as the stereotype of someone who commits date rape? Why are these things even in the same universe?

54

[QUOTE= matt_mcl]
Even if we ignore the entire point of the thread, how could you even say that it’s as gross to you to consider the stereotype of an overly effeminate gay guy as the stereotype of someone who commits date rape? Why are these things even in the same universe?
[/QUOTE]

I am saying that each stereotype is gross to me. You’re invested in defending one as something you either see every day or something you see as part of an overall fight for acceptance while (rightly) vilifying the other as horrible- but they’re STEREOTYPES and I find THOSE STEREOTYPES gross. If I had substituted any other fraternity stereotypes for “date-raping,” would you still be doing this?

I appreciate your need to defend; you need to appreciate the fact that I am painting broad swipes of social caricatures here.

55

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
If I had substituted any other fraternity stereotypes for “date-raping,” would you still be doing this?
[/QUOTE]

As I’ve made clear, that’s the part of your argument that by far I most strongly object to. It’s completely beyond the pale, and I’d appreciate your retracting it.

56

I will not.

While over-the-top, I stand by it as a description of a stereotype.

While I appreciate that the comparison may have hit you close to home, I think your investment in the issue is clouding your perception and I don’t think a retraction is warranted.

57

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
While over-the-top, I stand by it as a description of a stereotype.
[/QUOTE]
It was an extremely jerkish one, in that it equated femme gays with rapists. Why not just admit it, apologize, and move on?

58

[QUOTE= Contrapuntal]
It was an extremely jerkish one, in that it equated femme gays with rapists.
[/QUOTE]

That’s certainly one reading of it, and I have and continue to admit that.

[QUOTE= Contrapuntal]
Why not just admit it, apologize, and move on?
[/QUOTE]

Because if one does not accept my honesty in why I said it, then why would one accept the honesty of my apology?
At no point did I intend and I do not believe that, absent an investment in the issue or an eggshell psyche, that your and matt_mcl’s reading is the mainstream one.

Discourse is sometimes rough. Such is its nature.

59

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Because if one does not accept my honesty in why I said it, then why would one accept the honesty of my apology?
[/QUOTE]

I do accept you are describing honestly why you said it. I argue that it is a bad reason and you need to apologize for it.

Thanks, by the way, for that “eggshell psyche” bit. Trivializing the legitimate complaints of underrepresented groups as being oversensitive is a common tactic and quite in line with your concomitant trivializing of the experiences of acquaintance rape survivors.

60

[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]
Discourse is sometimes rough. Such is its nature.
[/QUOTE]
It can be polished to quite a high sheen, however, should one have be willing to put in the effort.