Does violently attacking someone with a chair count as ‘work’? Or is the question moot?
(Sigh.) There will be bad apples in any crowd.
That said, the people to whom you’re referring, Mangetout, were being deliberately inflammatory. I’m not condoning the violence, but they certainly knew who and what they were exposing themselves to.
My WAG is it doesn’t (unless maybe you swing it across an eruv) but it definitely shows profound disrespect for a being made in God’s image.
How do Jewish people get on who work in the Police Force or medicine or the fire brigade? I can’t imagine that they’d be able to arrange their shifts every week so they have the Sabbath off. Or do strictly observant Jews not work in those professions?
I definitely don’t want to start any fireworks, but following on from jabiru’s post, how does the Israeli Defence Force manage the Sabbath and their military duties?
jabiru:
IANAL, but I’d think that for police and fire departments, at least in America, I imagine that allowing Orthodox Jews to work shifts that do not require Sabbath violation would be a “reasonable accommodation” for religion that is required by workplace non-discrimination laws.
For medical professionals, they can of course respond to emergencies on Sabbath and are allowed to be on call to respond. Whether they are allowed to work routine shifts on Sabbath when there’s no known emergency around, I’m not certain. I suppose in Israel, where there would be few non-Jewish doctors, having someone on hand in hospitals would be considered a life saving measure.
Dottygumdrop:
Having some portion of the army active even on Sabbath is a life-saving necessity.
Yom Kippur, 1973 drove this point home very firmly.
A recent news item 'round these parts is first Hasidic recruit to enter the NYPD academy.
http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=31470&siteSection=1
I had heard all you had to do is dip them in boiling water 3X.
http://www.njop.org/html/how_kosher.html#dishes
I have even heard that some Rabbis say that a dishwasher (which also has rules for kashering) will kasher dishes?
The Yom Kippur War of 1973 involved the Israeli Army, et al. I live less than a mile from a village of Ultra-Orthodox Satmar Sect Jews. They do not drive their own ambulances on Shabbat. They have non-Jews drive for them, but they do ride and perform lifesaving activities.
I have to believe that the Orthodox Jews riding on that ambulance corps are allowed to discharge a Defibrillator if need be, despite the fact that they are “creating” an electrical jolt.
Cartooniverse, retired NYS EMT
Fanatics believe that their rules should apply to everyone, non-believers included. That’s one of the hallmarks of fanaticism.
too simplistic in my opinion.
You will no find any prohibition against sexual intercourse (the ultimate creative act) on the sabath in the Jewish scriptures.
Cartooniverse:
They absolutely are allowed to. My uncle is a Hatzolah EMT, so I’ve learned quite a bit about these issues from him.
sunsrise, sunset…sunrise, sunset…sunrise, sunset…this is getting tiring!
Well, this has been an amusing thread, but I just have to ask Surreal…why do you ask?? I am at a loss to imagine the thought process that might have led to this particular question coming up…bar bet? Expecting Orthodox houseguests and worried they might ask you to perform this service for them? Considering conversion and just needed this issue cleared up first?
On a more serious note, let me be the first to apologize on behalf of the Jewish people to xiix for the appalling conduct of his assailant!
Do a search on threads started by Surreal, this one isn’t even that far out there. He/she has asked some very out there questions, always interesting.
One other reason that Jew practice these acts or behaviors, and maybe others of other religious persuasions could say the same, is that as of this point in our lives, and in our generation, the tradition itself feels like it binds us with others of our religion, present and past. Many of us, and I speak mainly for myself, could not tell you the Talmudic or Biblical or historical reasons for some of the actions, rituals, or behaviors. Of course, that’s the point of some of our holidays - to review some of it and remind ourselves of the basics. Sort of a yearly catechism - a review session. So while some folks are observant because of a deeply felt rationally arrived at reason, some of us are “observant” because that’s the way we connect with the other members of our tribe. That number in Fiddler on the Roof, “Tradition,” was not just another song.
I’ll be second. Unfortunately, every group has its share of fanatics and assholes, and you had the misfortune to run into one of ours.
I really don’t understand the ultra-orthodox Jews who chain down phones or throw rocks at people driving on the Sabbath. They know very well that not everyone they encounter is Jewish, and there’s no imperative in Judaism to try to convert non-Jews- we don’t believe that non-Jews automatically go to hell or anything like that (We do accept converts if they come to us, but there’s not a proselytizing tradition in Judaism in the last millennium). I suppose they’re more worried about letting a Jewish person sin by driving on the Sabbath than they are about personally sinning by attacking a non-Jew who is not doing anything wrong. I think that’s a rather strange way to look at things.
The Flying Dutchman: the Sabbath rules also come from God mandating that everyone involved in working on building the Temple of Solomon take the Sabbath off work- all activities that were involved in building the Temple were forbidden. Sex wasn’t something that was involved in the building of the Temple :eek: , so it’s not forbidden. Many of the forbidden activities are things that the rabbis of the Talmud later decided were equivalent to activities involved in building the Temple.
Of course, all the references to the extremists and their antics beg the question - and it belongs elsewhere, I understand (and I’m not actually posing it): on balance, has organized religion been a benefit or a deficit to humanity? And apropos of that, I saw John Dean at a book talk last night, discussing his latest. It actually connects with this issue. hmmm, as I said to my class this morning - everything is connected. just mumblin’ …
Preservation of life comes before every other law in the Torah, yes ? I’m glad to get confirmation of this. However, Hatzolah does not use it’s members to Drive on Shabbat, does it? Or, does it- and just K.J. Volunteer Ambulance shys away from this. Thoughts? Hatzolah is NOT a Satmar Sect organization, though it is admittedly a completely Orthodox run group.
Interesting side note- Hatzolah is the only licensed Ambulance service in the State of New York whose charter does not limit their service area. Every single other licensed group is chartered to provide service within a given county. ( And, before anyone jumps out of their skin, ambulances from all over lower NY State and NJ and CT came into NYC on 9/11. Nobody would have said boo. Nobody DID say boo. That was a different kind of situation, and not one covered at the time by any Charter).
Hatzolah is chartered to operate freely across county lines in responding without limit. Interesting…
I hope the question didn’t come across as flippant - it was genuine curiosity - what I should have asked is does violence toward another human count as ‘work’, or does the question of it being work not even arise, because the action is prohibited for other reasons in law - if that makes more sense.