No, just the bottom-up one.
The belief in g-d, thee one g-d and no other is one of the 13 basic tenants of Judaism.
And that is in direct contradiction to your response in post number 199, agreed?
To all concerned, first and foremost. if you are born jewish you die jewish(jewish mother,lineage is determined by the mother not the farther.)) No matter what you do in-between these 2 events. Even if you convert to another religion you are still jewish even though you think your not and your punishment or reward is determined about what you do with your life. 1 of the 13 basic principles of judaism is the belief in 1 g-d and no other.
worshipping other g-ds is considered Idol worship.
Punishment or reward?
No, it’s not. Judaism does not “basic tenets”. You’re talking about Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith, which are all well and good, but hardly are a ‘tenet’ held by Judaism as a whole. In certain congregations you can, for instance, go your whole life without hearing about Rambam, let alone his 13 Principles. Let alone being told that you must accept them as guiding rules.
Also not true. Many Jews would consider someone who converts to Christianity, becomes an ordained minister and dies praying to Jesus Christ to have left the tribe forever and irrevocably. That’s most likely the majority position, in fact, and the Israeli position on who’s a Jew (while not determinative) supports that view as well.
There are most likely very few Jews who would consider a life-long protestant minister to be a Jew.
Bwah?
Channelling Humpty Dumpty I believe.
Yes, sometimes conversations are most “unsatisfactory”.
No?
Okay, I’ll try one more time.
There are multiple different Jewish movements and within those movements there are different opinions. None of these movements have anything like a pope that decides from the chair. A consensus on anything that includes thoughts from the ultra-Orthodox to Reform to Conservative to Reconstructionist will be rare. Even agreeing on who is “respected and prominent” is pretty unlikely.
Across the board however, all groups, this much can be said. Big deal - no other gods. Big deal - what matters otherwise is much more what you do not what you believe; do the right thing whether you think you will be rewarded or punished or not, because it is the right thing and needs no other reason to do it. (Yes, we will disagree on which actions are the most important right things, but we all agree on that principal.)
As to a consensus on whether or not Jews are commanded to believe in God - limit to the Orthodox and you’d probably find a majority opinion that we are with a sizable number who do not. You’ll also find a good number who take much more of the Torah as literal truth than do the rest of us. The rest of tend to read more of the Torah as myths than history and find the greater truths in the meanings of the myths. Among the rest of us authorities you’ll find a majority consensus that atheism is acceptable and among those who read the text as commanding belief very few who believe that following that command is a big deal one.
If that is not clear to you then so be it. (I think I hear a crash now.)
Well in that case your explanation makes no sense at all.
In post number 199, you confirmed that in your view, there is no consensus view about whether Judaism commands its adherents to believe in G-d. You later clarified that this is “bottom-up consensus.”
On the other hand, Finnegan asserted the following:
And you said that this also represents “bottom up consensus.”
If Judaism is not a religion that’s about belief, and this is the “bottom-up consensus,” then it follows that the “bottom-up consensus” is that belief in G-d is not commanded. And yet you claim there is no “bottom-up consensus.”
And that’s a contradiction.
hi, jews expelled from arab lands after the war of independence were always identified as jews but had the country of origin in front i.e… syrian jews, lebanese jews, iraqi jews.
That’s reasonably clear to me, thank you.
Crabs are arthropods.
I think I’ve hit my limit. Thanks guys - I hope it was reasonably helpful for some people, at least!
At least you got responded to… pouts
FWIW, I found your posts very enlightening!
It was - even for some of us Jews.
117th time’s the charm.
You do realize that Dseid’s position contradicts yours, don’t you? I guess not.
I have trouble “realizing” things that other people have imagined. I admit, not being able to realize things that are not real is one of my failings. Of course, back in reality, there’s no contradiction at all between what I’ve repeatedly said and what DS reiterated. But as you’ve thoroughly misrepresented and/or misunderstood my position from the word go, when you claimed I was trying to speak for “all Jews”, I don’t expect you to grok.
Then again, as you still haven’t actually provided a cite for your beliefs, or done more than make tacit claims which you refuse to make explicit, your continual sniping from the sidelines isn’t particularly valuable. As you were still asking for “authorities” deep, deep into the thread, your understanding of the basics of the topic are obviously lacking and prevent you from correctly understanding a nuanced argument let alone spotting contradictions within or between them.
But you can feel free to imagine contradictions if you see fit.
Yes, it was just my imagination that you posted this:
Even SecondJudith admitted that you were asserting the existence of a (“bottom-up”) consensus.