It’s not a contradiction, you simply don’t grok it in the least particular.
In fact, the quote of mine you keep bandying about echos, pretty much exactly, DS’ second paragraph above.
But as I’ve said earlier, since you still won’t actually post your own position and defend it and you’re just needling people with this annoying mutation of valid Socratic dialogue, I’m going to stop responding to the baiting.
He’s discovered the universal Jewish truth-
3 Jews, 4 opinions.
Jews are so known to disagree about most areas of Jewish practice and Torah interpretation, the joke is cultural meme. And as usual, this discovery rates a big “meh” from fellow Jews. Hell, there’s not even consensus about which way Hanukah candles should be lit!
Yes, must be my “imagination.”
Lol, another personal attack.
Anyway, didn’t you already announce that you were taking your ball and going home, so to speak?
Yes, you said this back in post #127:
Or was that my wonderful imagination again?
Missed edit window- FinnAgain
ETA: Not to say that I saw anything contradictory in your posts. I completely get what you mean.
Damn, missed window again.
Brazil84: I have tried to answer your questions and you have ignored just about every post I’ve written. I have read this entire thread and have no clue what, at this point you are trying to achieve. Whatever it is, it doesn’t feel like honest debate but some bizarre gotcha game. It is so tempting to say “I’m done” and then to hold out hope that this time it’ll be clear.
What is it that you are trying to achieve? It’s been established that there are basic guidelines both top down (from movement authorities) and bottom up (congregational level) but that doesn’t mean consensus of the entire Jewish community or even within each of those groups (an individual member in a congregation can differ from the consensus and be just fine). Consensus doesn’t mean group-think. So to say that Jewish people, in general, feel a certain way AND to say that there is no consensus is perfectly non-contradictory in this meaning.
No prob. I’m reasonably certain anybody who’s got even a passing familiarity with Judaism would grok. But as brazil has repeatedly asked for “authorities” despite being told again and again that no such beasts exist within Judaism, I’m not sure he’s gotten the point that we’ve all been hammering on.
And even while DSeid (reiterated) my point that Judaism is a religion about actions and not belief, he didn’t support brazil’s I’m-Not-Touching-You!!! argument about how somehow one has to believe in God to be a religious Jew. When I asked him to back up that claim even for the Orthodox, he tried to change the subject. And the fact remains that, even for the Orthodox, belief in Jesus is cause for expulsion, loss/lack of faith is not.
I’ve always heard it as “two Jews three opinions”. I’m pretty sure I even quoted it on the first or second page. But I’m still not sure he’s discovered it now. We’ve gone over and over and over the difference between top-down and bottom-up, at which point he tried to invent his own definition for ‘consensus’ and/or demanded “authorities” to back up any claim. The really funny thing is that every single Jewish poster and cite offered has said exactly the same thing and agreed on the actual points, and all we get is this Socratic mutation of an argument shambling at the facts repeatedly.
Ah well…
Just as we can talk about broad consensus even if individuals disagree, congregations vary, and the sects have differing interpretations. To my knowledge none of them have any policy in place where belief in God is a positive requirement as not following another religion is a negative requirement. Brazil has not and, I’d wager, will not provide any such cite.
Just more of the same.
My main purpose in the thread can be found in Post #48. My most recent posts were to respond to Finnagain’s weaseling.
What about you . . . if you feel that you have stated your position, what are you trying to achieve at this point?
brazil, I have no idea what you think Finn has said that is any way different than what I said, other than the manner in which it was said. Unless words mean different things to you than they do to the rest of us.
Anyway, this is what you are looking for?
I hope that by now you understand why such a question cannot be either/or. There closest answer to that question is that there is a general consensus and no such thing as “the most prominent and respected religious authorities in Judaism” … the way Judaism works doesn’t really jive with your perspective of how religions operate I think so it has been hard for you to get. The amazing thing is that all these groups and individuals need so little as a common consensus to think of ourselves as one faith. Mainly an agreement to disagree and to argue with each other with some respect.
“Consensus” certainly seems to have its own meaning…
I’m at a loss as to what contradictions brazil is seeing, let alone what “weaseling” he’s imagining. In a truly remarkable, rare event, every Jew posting to this thread has pretty much agreed on every single major point. We’ve tried again and again and again to rephrase things and catch the particular bit of nuance that might help folks grok the essential dynamic at work, but we’ve all pretty much reiterated the fundamental dynamic and to clarify the organization, ‘doctrinal’, theological and sectarian structures of Judaism,and the few areas of relative firm consensus. I think we can certainly take brazil at his word that he sees some sort of contradictions strewn all over the thread, but there’s only so much we can all do to try to give him the basic prerequisite knowledge required to understand the basic underlying dynamic. Once that’s clear, it’s reasonably obvious why there’s no contradiction even when there’s variance. And if ignorance is wilfully held to, there’s nothing to be done about it.
Ah well.
So you agree 100% with the following statement:
Fighting the idea that FinnAgain or SecondJudith were weaseling.
It lives! The thread lives!
Ah well, at least it isn’t as annoying as those threads where evangelical Christians argue that “Jews for Jesus” are really Jews, because, you know, not all Jews believe the exact same thing, there is no Jewish Pope to tell them they can’t be Jews, etc. etc.
I disagree.
At least then they come right out and say it, none of this silly dancing around the point “Oh, so you admit that you cannot speak for all Jews and there may be a Jew somewhere who disagrees with you, don’t you? Not that I’m making a point, mind you, or stating an opinion. Heavens forfend. But you’ve obviously contradicted yourself when you claim that a Christian isn’t a Jew but that Jews don’t have an official body that can decide who is and isn’t a Jew. Not that I think you’re necessarily wrong, I must add. That would be an opinion, which I do not hold, and a position, which I will not provide citations to support. But you’re still wrong.”
Haha, thank you, and congratulations on achieving your dream in this thread.
I’m genuinely quite impressed by this as well! The best we’re doing for significant disagreement is “some hypothetical Orthodox people over there, probably.”
As one more Jew in the thread, I wanted to copy-and-paste another quick Einstein quote; I’m by no means saying he speaks for everyone, but it certainly strikes me as an intriguing point of view worth relaying all the same.
As to the last point in the Einstein quote, this article may be of some interest:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n4_v46/ai_20583575/
It’s threads like this, in reading the words of people more knowledgeable and well versed than I, that makes me fall in love all over again with being Jewish.
Yes.
And the fact that the non-belief in other gods is a critical element and that some argument might be made that belief is commanded and a few may even believe that command to be vitally important in no way contradicts that.
You see Jews disagree with each other about lots of things, including a huge amount of what their shared religion is all about. These are among the few things we can pretty much all agree on:
No other gods.
The religion is much more about actions than beliefs: it’s about doing the right things. (Even those who believe that there is a command to believe that is vitally important would endorse this.)
We are free to argue with each other … and will.
Beyond that my Judaism and some ultra-Orthodox’s Judaism may have only slight overlap.
Left to right!
I think the crux of what we’ve been saying is this:
“We all agree that Jews are allowed to disagree with each other. Unless, of course, you are a ‘Jew for Jesus’ which invalidates your vote entirely.”