Does Lexus make good cars?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Oh it absolutely was condescending as used by my brother. I’m used to that from him. Its pretty much constant. As his daughter said once… “so annoying”.

What I don’t get is what people mean by ‘numb and unenthusiastic’. What does that mean? My Corolla is 10 years old and sure it doesn’t accelerate 0-60 in .02 seconds or something, but it gets the job done for what I need it for. ie. work and groceries etc. I’m not going to be driving at top speed across European highways winding through exciting mountain passes and seeing if I can make Milan in 2 hours instead of three. or whatever. Nor am I going to be doing anything remotely like drag racing.

What further enjoyment can I expect to get from a ‘car’ vs a ‘driving appliance’, for what I’ll be using it for? What will I be more enthusiastic about with a ‘drivers car’?

42

It’s like this:

What further enjoyment can I expect to get from a ‘beer’ vs a ‘thin yellow liquid’, for what I’ll be using it for? What will I be more enthusiastic about with a ‘craft beer’?

Some guys drink a nice craft beer and just don’t see anything special about it, preferring Miller Lite or some such. That’s fine, really it is, but that doesn’t stop me from wishing I could explain to them the joy of a good hop balance.

Some cars are just better than the sum of their parts, in a way that makes them a joy to drive. They feel like they’re rewarding you for paying attention, they almost seem to anticipate your next move. Other cars seem to fight you for control. On paper there’s little difference between a Mazda3 and a Corolla, but in practice, one is a craft beer and the other is a cheap macrobrew.

That doesn’t mean we should condescend to the Miller Lite drinkers, and if your brother’s an ass then so be it, but hopefully that helps explain where he’s coming from.

43

It’s that the performance-oriented car will be more responsive to what you want to do. It’s not about going 200 mph to the grocery store. Just with normal day-to-day driving there are many differences.

It’s that when you take a turn, you can take it tighter and faster than a normal car could. If you’re making a right turn in a normal car, you have to be careful with your speed or you can drift into the next lane. A car like a BMW will have better suspension and will hold the line better and can make the turn tighter and at higher speed.

Or when you’re getting on the highway from the onramp. A car with better acceleration will allow you to more easily merge into traffic. You can get in a smaller gap and quickly get up to speed. With a normal car, you either have to wait for a much larger gap or else you merge in and can’t accelerate quickly enough and the car behind you catches up to you.

So a higher performance car will allow you to do all the normal driving things you’re already doing but do them better. Even if you never go over the speed limit, there are many driving benefits to a higher performance car (with the trade off of the car being in the shop more often).

44

Yes, filmore, but if a Camry, Sonata or 200 already does all those things to a particular person’s entire satisfaction, the tradeoff of the car being in the shop more often to do them “better” is not worth it.

Of course, but you can then say “regular American beer” vs. “craft beer”, and say “family/commuter car” vs. “sporty car”. And if the Miller Lite drinker says “I just want something cold to drink while watching the game” we hand them their Miller Lite and shut up and have our Belgian Wheat in peace. No need to use terms that imply a negative in either direction (and oh, right: people who like sportier cars do not have to justify it, either, it’s a preference and that’s that).

45

It sounds pejorative. Y’know - to me.

See that sounds pejorative too, to the point where it does seem like taking a stab at those people.

So in closing, it actually seems like fully solicited criticism to me ;).

For the record, I do think Toyotas are in fact boring to drive :). I also think actual sports cars are rather uncomfortable. And stuff like Bentleys are absurdly over-priced. Mr. Middle-Of-The-Road, I am.

46

If you’re comparing a sporty BMW to a Smart Car or something, perhaps.

If you’re needing higher acceleration and handling to be able to hit gaps on the highway that my V6 Acura can’t hit, I’d say you’re going beyond pure safe devensive driving at the very least, possibly approaching the idiots that weave and wait until the last second to dive three lanes to an exit because they can.

47

Well that’s where my analogy sucks, then, because I mean to compare “boring family/commuter car” to “fun family/commuter car.” A Mazda3 isn’t any more expensive or fancier than a Corolla, but it’s so much better in the ways that matter to me. Consider it more like “Breaking Bad” versus “Real Housewives.” Sure, fine, watch what you want to watch, but both shows cost the same to the viewer and take the same amount of time to watch, except one gets better ratings. And if you ask a TV critic (aka, a car guy) which show to watch, don’t be surprised if he condescends to reality TV.

48

It’s why I prefer not to use those types of terms, because they don’t really tell anyone anything, other than speaking to other enthusiasts who think alike. Manufacturers build some vehicles with a certain amount of feedback to the driver (which I’d loosely define as interacting with their various senses), while they build others which seek to isolate the driver (conversely, removing input to their various senses).

An easy example would be a car with no power steering vs one with full steering assist. In the former, you’re fully aware of what physics are taking place, and it shifts responsibility towards the driver, who takes a more direct/dynamic role in car-control. In a car with full assist, such effects are masked and the driver is mostly removed from what the car is doing to compensate. The driver is allowed to enjoy (or deal with) other aspects of the experience which aren’t tied to the same degree of car control.

Today, some manufacturers are better at reproducing the effect of the former, but it falls back to personal taste. Neither is good or bad, but the makes will generally follow the money. Place this concept on a spectrum, include more aspects of the car and driving experience, and you’ll find various cars littered throughout, which appeal to various types of consumers.

I think that’s always a key question. If your intention is to include your car in practical everyday activities, as a matter of convenience, then you should get the car which suits you (not someone else). If that means you want some nice features, don’t want to feel bumps in the road, or deal with added noise, vibration and harshness (NVH), then you’re like most people and won’t need a “drivers car”. You’d get a car (because it’s still definitely a car) that’s designed to serve your purposes, and there are many (arguably more) that will do this just fine.

I love cars and driving, so I buy those which cater to my desires. I actually like smaller vehicles, with tighter cockpits, but with all sorts of tech and the ability to configure-- but the last thing I’d do is expect anyone who isn’t interested to give a damn. That’s like me trying to buy a lawn mower, and someone asking if I want “A LAWNMOWER or a grass cutting appliance”. It’s unnecessary. I just want to get a chore done and get back to what I actually like doing.

49

Excellent post, thanks!

50

Seconded: a fine post, Krouget.

(emphasis added) Exactly.

51

Reliable? Yes
Boring? YES!**

** With the notable exception of the LF-A

52

I thought I’d update this, just because.

I’ve looked at all the luxury brands I care to now. Now it’s just up to deciding which one both my wife and I feel comfortable in…

We’ve looked at Mercedes C300, BMW 328, Audi A4, Lexus IX(?) and Acura TLX.

So far we both like Infiniti Q50. My wife found the Mercedes (by other favourite) too ‘stuffy’, by which I think she means pretentious? Hard to explain.

I’ve been looking at various tech features that the standard brands don’t have. I’ll likely ask for as much as my wife is willing to spend on. heh.

So, if the car comes to around $53,000 including all the fees and taxes, what do you all think I’d likely be able to negotiate for? I’ve looked at a couple of sites that give you an idea of dealer costs, and suspect at the end of it I’d be lucky to get 4000 off. Maybe more like 3000.

53

I’ve reached a level of regard for my personal comfort and safety where I don’t WANT my drive to be an adventure. Give me boring every time.

54

Look at just one more: Jaguar XE.

ETA: In the entry luxury segment, you are not likely to get many price breaks unless you’re buying last year’s stock or a dealer demo with low miles. I think you’ll have better luck on the $$ if you go to something like a Hyundai Genesis.

55

Broad reputations and facts don’t always line up exactly. Also individual experiences vary, factually, besides the driver’ preferences and priorities varying.

And if you want a car to get from point A to point B, you’re not looking at a Lexus or Acura or BMW, Mercedes etc. I think there’s some understandable tendency to view a Lexus as a special Toyota. In fact Toyota Motor doesn’t use the Lexus brand everywhere, it’s really mainly a brand in the American market, Acura is even more that way, practically doesn’t exist as a brand outside North America. And naturally a BMW isn’t a special anything, it’s BMW, everywhere. But there are very real engineering refinements in the most expensive Toyota models (whether called ‘Lexus’ or not) v. cheaper ones. Whereas, paying $50k for a car never gets you twice as much in strict utilitarian terms, getting from A to B safely, as a $25k car. There have to be other less strictly practical considerations (faster, smoother, quieter, status being the most controversial one).

My experience. My new 2000 E Mercedes eventually bugged the crap out of me with minor reliability problems. I traded it in for a new Lexus GX in 2005. Of course that’s not a sporty car it’s an SUV, wife preferred it. Zero problems in 10 yrs and that matters IMO, also very capable vehicle within the category SUV. Sold it to a family member and got a new BMW 328 in 2014. It’s fun to drive, much better car all around than the Mercedes (but with benefit of 15 yrs advancement, not a fair comparison) but…starting to bug me with minor glitches, and I’m thinking on and off of getting rid of it and going back to Lexus.

People talk about X*100,000 miles for major drive train components but it would take us longer than we ever keep a car to get much past 100k, actually never have on a car we bought new. Mainly I want to avoid the little/medium things going wrong, which it seems with Lexus you can actually avoid, but not IME the German cars.

56

Drive a 5 Series BMW in “Sport Mode/Steptronic Mode” and you will see the light :smiley:

57

Forgot to add: I had a Nissan Altima in the early 2000s and really liked it. I guess it would be labelled a “driving appliance,” but it had quite a bit of kick and was virtually problem free.

58

I would have a good look at a Cadillac ATS-V if you’re in that territory as well. I know there are websites that can give you the dealer invoice price which is a good starting point. There have been a few threads here, ISTR, that discussed this very thing.

59

Thanks for the advice. I did want to look at the XE too at some point, but I’m not sure my wife will be interested in it.

Someone else mentioned Cadillac, another brand I hadn’t really considered.

I’m looking for something with more modern ‘infotainment’ and safety features. I could just go get a new corolla but then it wouldn’t have features like power seats, dual climate control, heated steering wheel, various sensors like backup collision warning, that sort of thing.

60

You’d be surprised on some of these lower end cars. I’m not sure about the Corolla specifically, but the Mazda 3 in Grand Touring trim that I’m currently eyeing has a 6-way power adjustable driver’s seat, heated front seats, dual zone climate controls, rear facing camera, lane departure warning, blind spot warning, rear collision warning… basically everything on your list except a heated steering wheel, but instead you get a super sweet HUD, all for around $25k. Most of these electronic gizmos are pure profit, because they’re just a combination of cheap sensors and DC motors plus some switches and wiring, and they’re now available on the lowliest of people movers. Korean cars especially have tried to break into the market by including a lot of these gadgets. The Cruze (aka GM Korea) is available in LTZ trim with almost every gadget imaginable, the Elantra, even the Civic is starting to catch up. I think the Corolla is one of the few cars that doesn’t have a lot of this stuff as optional equipment.